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Old 06-10-2012, 02:09 PM
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Default HBO Game of Thrones (book spoilers through ADWD)

Perhaps a bad time to start a thread for the show since season 2 just ended, but oh well. I mentioned on the thread on Non that Alfie Allen essentially confirmed R+L=J in this interview, and aside from that, I noticed what might be a double-clue about Tyrion's parentage in "Blackwater", which was the only episode of season 2 written by GRRM himself.

It's been speculated for a long time by Westeros fans that Tyrion was a Targaryen partly because of his lighter hair (in the show, they put sparkly highlights in his hair) and partly because of his obsession with dragons and his success with wildfire and other symbolic things. And though he's accustomed to being fairly impotent as a warrior since he is a dwarf, a dragon could change all that fairly easily, so there's a lot of appeal there, since Tyrion is a fan favorite.

Then in ADWD there was a more blatant clue, that Mad Aerys had a thing for Tyrion's mother Joanna, and complained that he couldn't claim the rights of the wedding night as kings did in the old days, and took extra liberties in the bedding ritual. It's possible that Tyrion was a child of rape (unless Aerys managed to seduce Joanna, which we have no reason to believe is plausible), and that this had something to do with Tywin turning against Aerys, which would explain a lot.

The arguments against it are generally along the lines of Tywin still having maintaining a cordial relationship with Aerys, continuing to serve as Hand, trying to marry Rhaegar to Cersei, etc., but IMO those are weak arguments because Tywin is a more than competent general and politician, and far from hot-headed. He probably only suspected, but either way he bided his time, and when the time was ripe he supported Robert in the rebellion and married Cersei to him instead. He would have probably been okay with Cersei married to Rhaegar so long as he could have had Aerys killed; Aerys was the problem, not Rhaegar.

I can't pretend to be an expert on Westeros, obviously; I'm a very casual fan, at least relative to WoT. But I can't help but think that this is one of those theories that the hardcore fandom has been opposed to for so long (based on scant evidence) that they continue to do it out of habit. I've seen it happen a lot in the WoT fandom; Verin is a good example, even though it's a slightly more complicated one.

Anyway, the bit from "Blackwater" that I noticed was Varys saying this to Tyrion just before the battle:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varys
The Dark Arts have provided Lord Stannis with his armies, and paved his path to our door. For a man in service to such powers to sit on the Iron Throne....I can think of nothing worse. And tonight, I believe you are the only man who can stop him.
And Varys gave him very significant looks and there was dramatic music and all. Again, GRRM wrote this episode, or I wouldn't have put much weight on it. We learn in ADWD that Varys is faithful to the Targaryen family and has done a great deal to protect the heirs. I went to look in the book to see if that scene was the same, and it wasn't...but I found this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrion
"Men are such faithless creatures," he said by way of greeting.

Tyrion sighed. "Who's the traitor today?"

The eunuch handed him a scroll. "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age. Did honor die with our fathers?"

"My father is not dead yet."
The only problem is that Aerys wasn't exactly honorable. He was toward the beginning of his life, and supposedly had the potential to be one of the greatest Targaryen rulers, and some say the 'rot' in his reign began with Varys. At the time Varys and Illyrio were in business together (you can read more about that here), and it was a very, very shady business. Varys basically worked his way up from thief to spymaster, having realized that knowledge was more valuable than anything material. Aerys brought him to King's Landing, and Varys exposed the many plots against him, which led to Aerys becoming paranoid and mad. In that sense Varys seems to be something like Mordeth or Jalwin Moerad, but supposedly the only thing he does is tell Aerys the truth.

So, Varys had been hiding Aegon since he was a baby. Illyrio, his old business partner, hid Dany and Viserys, and gave Dany the three dragon eggs when the time came (apparently believing that she was better suited to being a ruler than her brother). Varys told Robert about Dany's pregnancy when the time came, and that led to attempts on her life, but did Varys manipulate even that, knowing Drogo would get angry enough to cross the sea? Not that that worked out. But he orchestrated Barristan Selmy's dismissal from the Kingsguard, and sent him to Dany, and Selmy saved her from one of the assassins by way of introduction. It's hard to say whether Varys knew of Jon or not; maybe a book expert knows.

I think Aegon is destined to die. He screams red herring because he was only just introduced and no one cares about him. I don't think that it's coincidence that Tyrion ended up with him; with the new clue about Joanna in ADWD, the mystery has been sharpened as to his parentage, and he's basically competing with Aegon for the third dragon at this point, though he doesn't realize it.

One thing I found interesting in the last episode of season 2, "Valar Morghulis", when Dany is in the House of the Undying, we don't get the same clues we got in the book, exactly. We get different ones, tied to the book clues. A lot of fans complained, and I can see why, but I liked what they did with it. She enters the throne room where the Iron Throne sits and sees a stained glass version of the seven-sided star (which looks like the sun) with a blue center (someone on Malazan suggested this represents Lyanna's blue roses, winter roses, which makes ice and fire). The throne room is all blasted out, and it's snowing inside. She goes up to touch the throne, but she hears a baby crying, and so she makes a priority choice, and goes toward the sound. She walks out of the Wall (not at Castle Black) and sees a tent in the snow, where Drogo is hanging out with Rhaego. In the book there was something similar, a wall of ice with a blue rose growing from a chink.

Anyway, one of the things I found interesting in that throne room scene was this:



That's so weird. Does it represent Varys somehow? Varys has a grudge against R'hllor; does that mean he serves the Others, while pretending to serve the Targaryens? It doesn't seem to make much sense.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez
At the time Varys and Illyrio were in business together (you can read more about that here)
Did you mean to include a link with this? I would be interested in reading whatever it was!

Anyway, I need to do a reread on ASOIAF since I skipped doing one before Dance was released, so I'm not going to address the issue of Tyrion's parentage too much though it sounds like a strong and interesting theory. The incest-riddled Targaryen genes might explain Tyrion's physical condition, though I do think that Cersei and Jaime are as twisted as he is in some ways - though Jaime at least appears to be redeemable, so perhaps it's not all about genetics.

Regarding Jon and his lineage, the reason why I wanted to discuss this outside of the TV show is because the end of ADWD raises a lot of questions about him. The fact that his parentage hasn't been dealt with yet in the books and the wealth of foreshadowing regarding him makes me think that, while he probably is dead as of right now, he isn't going to stay that way; either Melisandre has Thoros of Myr's power of resurrection, and will figure out why she never gets Stannis when she looks for Azor Ahai reborn, or - slightly more left-field - Jon might auto-life (for players of Final Fantasy games) and bring himself back should an attempt be made to burn his body. It seems pretty obvious by this point that he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, and the interview just makes it completely clear.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:54 PM
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Did you mean to include a link with this? I would be interested in reading whatever it was!
Yeah, sorry, it was just the link to Varys on the Wiki.

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Regarding Jon and his lineage, the reason why I wanted to discuss this outside of the TV show is because the end of ADWD raises a lot of questions about him. The fact that his parentage hasn't been dealt with yet in the books and the wealth of foreshadowing regarding him makes me think that, while he probably is dead as of right now, he isn't going to stay that way; either Melisandre has Thoros of Myr's power of resurrection, and will figure out why she never gets Stannis when she looks for Azor Ahai reborn, or - slightly more left-field - Jon might auto-life (for players of Final Fantasy games) and bring himself back should an attempt be made to burn his body. It seems pretty obvious by this point that he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child, and the interview just makes it completely clear.
I don't believe he's dead at all; I figure Melisandre saw what would happen in the fires and positioned herself to be there to save him, which would put him in her debt and more likely to listen to her than he was before. It was a red herring just like Aegon was, IMO.
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Old 06-10-2012, 03:33 PM
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Yeah, sorry, it was just the link to Varys on the Wiki.


I don't believe he's dead at all; I figure Melisandre saw what would happen in the fires and positioned herself to be there to save him, which would put him in her debt and more likely to listen to her than he was before. It was a red herring just like Aegon was, IMO.
When you say save him, do you mean she'll be able to get to him and heal him from the multiple stab wounds? I've discussed with many friends the number of times he was stabbed and the likelihood of survival, and come to the conclusion that he probably is dead but a resurrection wouldn't be out of the question. Whether he's dead or just very badly wounded, he'd still be in Melisandre's debt afterwards - and if resurrected, be even more likely to listen to her. It's also worth bearing in mind that there is likely some resurrection prophecy associated with the Prince That Was Promised and if Jon fulfils that role, then he would be a better fit for the role after being resurrected. On the other hand, there's not specific evidence that Thoros' power of resurrection would be held by Melisandre, nor that that power is necessarily a good thing; it might be associated with the Others given what ultimately happened to Beric Dondarrion, and what's happened to Catelyn.

One difficulty I have with Varys as a supreme puppet master on either side is that the events of the War Of The Five Kings are actually the work of Littlefinger. I've always thought Littlefinger represents a chaotic element, the sort of person who just wants to see the world burn, but with the skill, patience, and intelligence to actually see it through if he's allowed to. With this in mind, Varys is perhaps less competent than he appears - though still clearly more competent than Cersei gives him credit for - since he's unable to control this element. On the other hand, he could be working with Littlefinger, whose actions in Feast certainly tend towards chaos.

Finally, I just want to cover my ass before I get called an idiot for any of this - it mostly represents a braindump. It's a long time since I reread the series properly and like most people on these boards I'm not nearly as clued up on ASOIAF as I am on WOT, so I'm more than prepared for things I say to be completely wrong (unlike the stupid mistakes I sometimes make about WOT!).
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
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Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

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Old 06-10-2012, 03:56 PM
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When you say save him, do you mean she'll be able to get to him and heal him from the multiple stab wounds?
I think it's possible, yes.

Quote:
I've discussed with many friends the number of times he was stabbed and the likelihood of survival, and come to the conclusion that he probably is dead but a resurrection wouldn't be out of the question. Whether he's dead or just very badly wounded, he'd still be in Melisandre's debt afterwards - and if resurrected, be even more likely to listen to her. It's also worth bearing in mind that there is likely some resurrection prophecy associated with the Prince That Was Promised and if Jon fulfils that role, then he would be a better fit for the role after being resurrected.
That's assuming there is a resurrection prophecy, though. I'm not sure; I don't really see Jon being resurrected in the same fashion as Dondarrion or Catelyn. They're not much more than zombies really.

Quote:
On the other hand, there's not specific evidence that Thoros' power of resurrection would be held by Melisandre, nor that that power is necessarily a good thing; it might be associated with the Others given what ultimately happened to Beric Dondarrion, and what's happened to Catelyn.
Thoros serves R'hllor, and R'hllor is the enemy of the Others. Ice vs Fire and all. I have a feeling that both are evil, and humans are sort of caught between an epic struggle between gods, such as they are.

Quote:
One difficulty I have with Varys as a supreme puppet master on either side is that the events of the War Of The Five Kings are actually the work of Littlefinger. I've always thought Littlefinger represents a chaotic element, the sort of person who just wants to see the world burn, but with the skill, patience, and intelligence to actually see it through if he's allowed to. With this in mind, Varys is perhaps less competent than he appears - though still clearly more competent than Cersei gives him credit for - since he's unable to control this element. On the other hand, he could be working with Littlefinger, whose actions in Feast certainly tend towards chaos.
On either side? I don't know. It's possible they're working together, but Varys undercutting Littlefinger in episode 10 seems to speak against it, among other things. I just wonder about the spider imagery; surely it means something.
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Old 06-10-2012, 04:33 PM
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I think it's possible, yes.

That's assuming there is a resurrection prophecy, though. I'm not sure; I don't really see Jon being resurrected in the same fashion as Dondarrion or Catelyn. They're not much more than zombies really.
Yeah, the resurrection prophecy is pure speculation on my part. The fact that the PWWP is Azor Ahai Reborn may already serve for a kind of resurrection symbolism if GRRM wants it. Chosen Ones normally do get some kind resurrection business going on with them; I've joked in the past that the three requirements for being the Chosen One are coming back from the dead, brining back the dead, and yanking some sort of weapon out of a rock. That's what that madness is based on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Thoros serves R'hllor, and R'hllor is the enemy of the Others. Ice vs Fire and all. I have a feeling that both are evil, and humans are sort of caught between an epic struggle between gods, such as they are.
One theory I have voiced in conversation with people is that the Drowned God of the Iron Islanders actually is the god of the Others. GRRM appears to be drawing a lot on HP Lovecraft for his religious entities and supernatural beings, and the Drowned God fits that to a tee. On the other side, R'hllor is quite a Lovecraftian-sounding name too. Bearing that in mind the idea that both gods are malevolent is a very good one, and not something I had thought of before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
On either side? I don't know. It's possible they're working together, but Varys undercutting Littlefinger in episode 10 seems to speak against it, among other things. I just wonder about the spider imagery; surely it means something.
Spiders are sometimes portrayed or thought of as carrion beasts who feed off the dead. This isn't entirely true, but their method of hunting involves the setting of traps and then killing their prey once it's caught or eating it after it's already dead. If this were applied to Varys, perhaps given that GRRM has said one of the themes of the series is people fiddling whilst Rome burns (paraphrased, obviously), perhaps Varys' web is actually leaving the way open for the attack of the Others. Perhaps as a eunuch, Varys doesn't have any particular interest in the propogation of life and the kind of order and peace he seeks is the quiet, dark order of death.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:54 PM
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That's assuming there is a resurrection prophecy, though. I'm not sure; I don't really see Jon being resurrected in the same fashion as Dondarrion or Catelyn. They're not much more than zombies really.
Neither Catelyn nor Beric were able to warg into their own direwolves before they died. I'd not use them as potential examples of what Jon might be like post-resurrection even if Melisandre used the same method to revive Jon's body that was used to revive those two.

Incidentally, the theory about Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard is not widely dismissed on the Westeros forum but neither is it thought to be as likely as R + L = J or even Aegon being a fake (and possible Blackfyre pretender). As it is, there is even some evidence that Jaime and Cersei are Targaryen bastards.

I think the important thing to remember about the possibility of Tyrion being half-Targaryen (and the same applies to Jaime and Cersei), is that it might be impossible to prove it within the story at this point. Perhaps it will serve Tyrion by allowing him to become a dragon rider but it's quite doubtful he will ever be acknowledged as a Targaryen. In other words, GRRM might simply leave the issue up in the air at the end of the series, leaving the readers to speculate as to whether he is the son of Arys or Tywin.

EDIT: I, myself, don't expect a definitive resolution to this issue within the books.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:11 AM
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I think Aegon is a complete fake but I have nothing to back it up other than feeling he's just a mummers dragon/red herring based on his late entry into the proceedings.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:48 PM
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I think Aegon is a complete fake but I have nothing to back it up other than feeling he's just a mummers dragon/red herring based on his late entry into the proceedings.
There's definitely a reason why he's only turning up now.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:30 PM
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I think Aegon is a complete fake but I have nothing to back it up other than feeling he's just a mummers dragon/red herring based on his late entry into the proceedings.
There's plenty to back it up. Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying; Quaithe's statement; Moqorro's prophecy; the clothes in Illyrio's house; the statute in Illyrio's house; the picture of Serra; Illyrio's hidden motives; Varys' actions since he arrived in Westeros; the metal sign that washes up on shore during AFfC; Tyrion's estimate of his age; etc.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:40 PM
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There's plenty to back it up. Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying; Quaithe's statement; Moqorro's prophecy; the clothes in Illyrio's house; the statute in Illyrio's house; the picture of Serra; Illyrio's hidden motives; Varys' actions since he arrived in Westeros; the metal sign that washes up on shore during AFfC; Tyrion's estimate of his age; etc.
I have no idea what you're talking about in most of these cases. Is there a FAQ explaining them at Westeros? I'm thinking not, since in the Tyrion FAQ they seem to take it for granted that Aegon is the third head.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:04 PM
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I'm still undecided about Aegon, time will tell I suppose. I do believe that Tyrion is the son of Aerys though. I had the idea that he didn't belong to Tywin when I first read Game of Thrones and the idea grows with each book. In several places it seems as though Tywin even doubts it, but as he says he can't prove it. After Dance it all fit together for me.

As to R+L=J, I too agree with that theory. Now we just need to wait for Howland Reed to make his first appearance and confirm it. As far as I know he's the only living person who would know the truth about what Ned discovered at the Tower of Joy.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:28 PM
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If Howland Reed never makes an appearance, I will be pretty pissed. He's been sitting up on the mantle since Book 1.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:29 PM
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What about Barristan Selmy? He seems to have a fairly decent idea about what happened, but maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:35 PM
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What about Barristan Selmy? He seems to have a fairly decent idea about what happened, but maybe I'm wrong.
He wasnt at the Tower...though he probably has a pretty good idea. There's also the fact that while he was with Rheager at the Trident, he wasn't his confidant...that honor went to the Martell Kingsguard (whose first name escapes me), not Barristan.

I seriously doubt Barristan doesnt know the truth or at least suspect a good bit of what happened...whether or not Barristan knows that Jon is that same bastard is a good question though.


Its been a while since I did a aSoIaF reread though.
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Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

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  #16  
Old 06-12-2012, 06:54 PM
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If Howland Reed never makes an appearance, I will be pretty pissed. He's been sitting up on the mantle since Book 1.
GRRM is deciding whether to have him first appear at the end of the sixth book or the beginning of the seventh.

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What about Barristan Selmy? He seems to have a fairly decent idea about what happened, but maybe I'm wrong.
Actually, all indications are that he doesn't know anything regarding the subject. The three most likely to know are Howland Reed, Ashara Dayne, and Wylla.

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I have no idea what you're talking about in most of these cases. Is there a FAQ explaining them at Westeros? I'm thinking not, since in the Tyrion FAQ they seem to take it for granted that Aegon is the third head.
No, there isn't. But, if you can be more specific I can help you out.

There is something of a building consensus that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra, and that Varys is a Blackfyre. There are also many who think Serra herself was a Blackfyre and the sister of Varys.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:59 PM
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I need a reread; I plan on doing one before next season. Anyway, curious as to what the general Westeros opinion is on what the hell Varys is trying to accomplish.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:03 PM
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I need a reread; I plan on doing one before next season. Anyway, curious as to what the general Westeros opinion is on what the hell Varys is trying to accomplish.
Basically, what all Blackfyres have ever tried to accomplish. To seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. He never anticipated the birth of the dragons though, which caused a complete reroute of his plans and will probably prove his undoing.
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  #19  
Old 06-12-2012, 07:07 PM
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Rheager obviously told some of the Kingsguard the truth...which is why they were at the Tower in the first place. Its plausible that Selmy knew also but was not there due to his grave injuries/subsequent capture at the Trident. The Kingsguard in those days was a true brotherhood and they didnt hide things like that. I vaguely recall Selmy musing about how the Kingsguard was in those days. Obviously the only one that wouldnt have been told is Ser Jaime given his youth, questionable loyalty, and lack of friendship with Rheager due to those issues, etc.
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Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

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  #20  
Old 06-12-2012, 07:07 PM
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Assuming Illyrio is on his side, then why give the dragon eggs to Dany?
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