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Old 06-20-2012, 04:39 AM
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Default Moiraine's 'death' was just another ploy in the Game

At least, I suspect that's how the Cairhienin will see it when Elayne tells them that Moiraine is going to be their queen after all. The subject came up in my reread thread so I decided to divert it here so I can get back to posting random thoughts about my reread.

A few points, for the uninitiated:

1. Elayne has not yet been officially crowned. I don't believe this is an accident. She claimed the throne by her own right, but she would never have done it if Rand hadn't needed her to do it, and she is an Andoran at heart.

2. Thom has already been made Court-Bard for both courts by Elayne, with some freedom, so clearly he has no desire to up and disappear after the Last Battle. He is like Luca in that.

3. Siuan was the one with the desire to travel around the world, much more than Moiraine, which is why Moiraine thought it was ironic that she was the one who went on the 'adventure' while Siuan was stuck in the Tower. Aside from that, state visits just got a lot easier with Traveling, and Thom made plenty of state visits when he was Court Bard for Morgase despite the need of long journeys to get anywhere.

4. Moiraine thought that Siuan would make a good Amyrlin, and Siuan thought that Moiraine would make a good queen. She even tried to talk Moiraine out of running away from the throne, and anticipated some of her arguments. I believe both of their comments on the subject in New Spring were foreshadowing.

5. Moiraine's original reasons for not wanting the throne are all null and void now. She had to find Rand because it was the most important thing in the world; she's a Blue, and she has her priorities straight. After the Last Battle is won, being a strong ruler in Cairhien might be the most important thing she can contribute to the world, which is not to say that she will not make other contributions. Elayne will too, I'm sure, as Queen of Andor.

6. One of the reasons Moiraine didn't want to be queen in New Spring was that she feared she would have to become like her grandmother Carewin to have a chance of keeping Cairhien in line. I don't think Moiraine anticipated how far she would go on that front simply by being Rand's advisor. She was scared when she was younger that she would have to 'stoop' to kidnapping and assassination, and neither she nor Thom are strangers to that, as we saw in Tear. But I think that neither would have to stoop any farther than they already have to rule by force of will, as Carewin Damodred did. Moiraine is a legend in Cairhien because of what happened on the docks, and you can be sure that word would spread, somehow, of Galldrian. And aside from those two things to bolster their reputations, I'm sure they could juggle the Cairhienin nobles with very little effort; I doubt there are two more skilled in the Game than those two.

So that's why I figure it will be presented as a ploy in the Game, when Moiraine finally takes the throne. She took out Lanfear in Cairhien in full sight of a ton of people, and that's just one detail of many that makes Moiraine on the Sun Throne too good to pass up. One might see it as Moiraine having run from a fate in New Spring that would eventually catch her up, though it's obvious that what she did do was more important to the Pattern at the time. One might also see it as Rand avoiding the obvious choice when he took Cairhien in the first place; now it's been several books and Elayne still hasn't officially taken the Sun Throne. But I think the Cairhienin will be less surprised than many readers when Moiraine shows up to take it instead. They like their Daes Dae'mar as complicated as possible; that's what makes their lives interesting.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:59 AM
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from the other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, he's still a Court Bard. He's Elayne's, in both Caemlyn and Cairhien.
oh yeah, forgot that... I was thinking when he told Moiraine he is just a regular gleeman now, despite his past...however you are mistaken. She only made him court bard of Caemlyn. She gave him a pardon for both countries for any crimes past and present... tho i think his comment about Elayne's pardon (wonder who told her...) was off-based. I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except Thom, as shortly after (and as a result of) that assassination the country erupted into civil war until Rand pacified them. I think she gave him a pardon in Andor and then added Cairhein into it as well because she wanted to be queen there too. She was establishing a precedent. To establish her interest and get people used to her issuing laws and proclamations for Cairhein as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
I don't see why you believe he has an urge to travel that isn't rooted in his attempt to stay ahead of the warrants for his arrest. I can provide evidence that he has no problem staying in one place, for many years in Caemlyn, and again in Tear when Moiraine had to root him out bodily. In fact, Moiraine thinks it's funny (and arrogance) that he kept his own name when he was so well-known in Caemlyn. Furthermore, a Court-Bard gets to travel with his Queen, and even did in the days before Traveling when it required weeks or months of riding on a horse to get anywhere.
Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first time, he didnt stay in Cairhien either, nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him) The only place he left with warrants was Andor. He would have left Tear with Rand had Moiraine not chased him off. After Cairhein, he went to Tar Valon, remember his stories to Mat? He was rich and young and traveling about with a carriage and found some married woman who wanted... bla bla bla... he was traveling before he was a bard (the first time) he traveled WHILE he was a bard, and he has been traveling every SINCE he was a bard... can you please tell me why a brief stay in Caemlyn somehow negates all this and means he wants to settle down?

Nothing in his history suggests he has ever stayed anywhere for long. I find it hard to believe he will settle down now because hes already an older man and hasnt settled down yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Moiraine was never the one with an urge for traveling; that was Siuan.
And yet Moiraine was the one who spent 20+ years traveling from place to place while Siuan stayed in teh tower for the majority of those years... funny how urges arent indicative of much... I mean every AS feels the urge to channel constantly, we really see it effecting Elayne in the middle books... that doesnt mean they act on each and every urge they have. Pointing out that who had what urge is not very supportive of much when the reality was exactly opposite those urges...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Why wouldn't she settle down? Her quest was important, and she fulfilled it, but ruling a great nation is important too, if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a province of Andor. And there are plenty of clues along the way that, no matter how ashamed she is of her House and its black name, she does care about Cairhien. In fact, her shame shows that she cares.
Because she is an AS, and a Blue one at that. She won't settle down because I dont think shes going to live, but even if she does, she's going to keep on being AS, Cadsuane style (multiple retirements and continued adventures) ...biggest evidence in your favor imo was her willingness to give up her angreal for Thom... showing that the power (and i think possibly representing her feelings about the white tower) isnt the same priority to her as it once was... but barring her death, I think she will remain working on crusades and causes for the blues and keep on moving about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
To quote you..."Obvious troll is obvious."
trolling you because I do not see the same things in Moiraine that you see? sorry kiddo, but disagreeing with several reasons (which i listed) is a far far cry from trolling... but hey! look at you! be proud! you just trolled a response out of me about trolling! (besides that guy was following you around in several threads trying so hard to troll you... cmon t, you know me better than THAT :P)

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
She took it by her own right, which is a very important distinction. I like distinctions. She would have never taken it if Rand didn't feel like he needed her to do it.
Im glad you like distinctions, but you cant have it both ways... she either took it on her own in spite of rand (as she did in andor) or she took it from rand... which is it? I dont think Rand factored into her decesion much as I recall, Ill be sure to pay attention during her POV's as I am coming up on these parts soon enough in my reread

Do you have any quotes to back up your opinion that "she would never have taken it if Rand didnt feel like he needed her to do it?" The only one that comes to mind is the exact same thing she said about the Lion Throne... do you likewise think she only rules there because Rand wants it? What is the difference here between the Sun and the Rose throne... she said she would put her claim in to both if SHE wanted to... not because Rand (or ANY man) gave it to her...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Indeed, and that is a problem, the way I see it.
I am glad you see this as a problem too, but I am still unsure why you seem to think she will start giving away lands?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
I think that Elayne has never wanted anything more than to rule Andor. She is Andoran, and she always will be in her heart.
I agree, she has been training her entire life to be Queen of Andor, and Cairhien has always had a ruler prior to Thom assassinating the last king... so why would she even think about conquering another land by force? It was never a dream of hers... however her father had some dreams about rulers on BOTH thrones.

which leads me into this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Perhaps the Cairhienin don't deserve one of their own, but the word 'deserve' can take on whole new connotations in the context of Moiraine and Thom ruling Cairhien. Because it is, after all, a joint monarchy.
Elayne is one of their own by blood as well... without the dark past that hangs on Moiraine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
There has been no coronation, and again, I don't believe that's an accident.
I disagree, she already took control of the country, sat upon its throne, accepted nobles as her liege people and ordered them (and thier standing army) to follow her... and they did... she changed the tradition that Colaviere (i hate trying to WOT names by memory) displayed. She is the queen of Cairhien now. She has the nobles, has thier army, even sat on the throne... coronation is just a ceremony, she has the backing of nobles, armies, etc... Queens make new rules as they see fit... you saw the coronation. The first of a new tradition perhaps. Or perhaps they will have an official one after the fields meeting, but I think you put too much stock in a ceremony when she already has the effective power of the monarchy there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
I suspect that Moiraine will have a problem with that. Just a suspicion, though; that could go down several ways.
I repeat, Moiraine has never expressed any desire in being a ruler. Infact she has expressed the exact OPPOSITE of desire to be a ruler, and has fled and spent her early years out of the tower to avoid such a thing.

I could very easily see her being an advisory to a ruler however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
I shouldn't have to. There are several scenarios that come to mind, all of them believable. It just takes a little imagination.
eh, i guess its the FOTM to not bother fleshing theories out these days...I do not believe there is a single believable scenario in which Elayne will give up that throne. The only one that comes to mind is if she dies... and I do not know how believable her death would be atm, she isnt on my likely death list, tho mainly because I havent decided exactly how i feel about Avi's 2nd pillar visions of the future.


oh well, not long before we find out now

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:18 AM
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Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first time, he didnt stay in Cairhien either, nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him)
Do you hear what you're saying? He wouldn't stay in Tear because Moiraine was chasing him away. Why? Because she saw that he was settling in, to keep Rand comfortable as a ruler. That is exactly what he would be doing for Moiraine under this theory.

Thom was a drifter because he was depressed and had no place in the world. He was settling down in Cairhien until Dena was murdered and he lost his anchor to that place. He was settling down in Tear until Moiraine had to play psychological warfare and FORCE him to leave.

There is nothing in Thom's persona that would hinder him from settling down. He's already done it twice before external events took away his reason or ability to do so.

Quote:
I do not believe there is a single believable scenario in which Elayne will give up that throne.
Uh, someone with a far better claim comes along? And Elayne decides her time is better spent trying to rescue her nation from the ashes of the Trolloc assault? If she so much as sets foot in Cairhien while Andor is under existential threat, I can't imagine the nobles there ever forgiving her.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
oh yeah, forgot that... I was thinking when he told Moiraine he is just a regular gleeman now, despite his past...however you are mistaken. She only made him court bard of Caemlyn.
If she's queen of both, then it makes little difference, but either way, he's still a Court Bard. In a way, he always was, hence his disdain for Common and even Plain.

Quote:
I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except Thom
Zera knows, for one. She doesn't seem like a gossiper, exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she has a couple of confidantes. And it's the kind of story that would be beneficial to Thom as a king, so she'd have no reason to keep it secret: he killed Galldrian because Galldrian's men killed the woman he loved. And it just so happens that the next woman he fell in love with was one with a strong claim to Galldrian's throne.

Quote:
Because he didnt stay in Caemlyn the first time
He would have stayed there a lot longer if not for Owyn.

Quote:
he didnt stay in Cairhien either
He probably wouldn't have stayed there for long if Dena had lived, unless he could have gotten her a place as a Court Bard somewhere. He didn't think being a gleeman was a fitting life for a woman. But now he has Moiraine, who cares little for music, but tells a fine story.

Quote:
nor did he stay in Tear (nor would he have stayed, Moiraine was chasing him away from RAND, not TEAR, because he had too much influence with him)
Sure, but the point is not that Thom is a homebody, but that he doesn't have a problem staying in one place. He's indifferent; it depends on his circumstances whether he stays in one place or stays on the road. You're trying to make it out like he's got some sort of itch and can't stay in one place for too long, and there's no evidence for it. As a gleeman, he had no choice, particularly considering his warrants, but it wasn't itchy feet that put him on the road, but purpose. Which is, incidentally, the same as Moiraine.

Quote:
The only place he left with warrants was Andor.
It doesn't matter, because he could be called down for those warrants nearly anywhere if he encounters the wrong people, which is why he was drinking himself silly in Tar Valon. Elaida was there. But also, the job of gleeman requires that he move around a lot, and if he couldn't be a Court Bard, then being a gleeman was the only option to him. You can't stay in one place forever as a gleeman, though he did mention staying a lot longer in the bigger cities where he could get around a lot before moving on.

Quote:
He would have left Tear with Rand had Moiraine not chased him off.
And he would have stayed there if Rand had stayed.

Quote:
And yet Moiraine was the one who spent 20+ years traveling from place to place while Siuan stayed in teh tower for the majority of those years...
As I said, Moiraine thought it was ironic. There were other reasons why Moiraine was the one out hunting; one of them had to do it, and Siuan was trapped in the Tower, first by Cetalia, and then by being raised Amyrlin. It's not that Moiraine had a problem with it. But she was doing it because she was on a mission, not because she had itchy feet.

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Because she is an AS, and a Blue one at that.
Blues are often rulers. Lelaine thought Elayne should have been a Blue because she was skilled in politics, generally the best avenue for causes.

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trolling you because I do not see the same things in Moiraine that you see?
No, because you're making lazy arguments...the same kind of arguments I see from noobs at Dragonmount (and here for that matter).

Quote:
Im glad you like distinctions, but you cant have it both ways... she either took it on her own in spite of rand (as she did in andor) or she took it from rand... which is it?
Now you sound like Emma. Not surprising, considering, but the distinction is the answer to your question. I addressed it in the OP of this thread. She took it by her own right, but she would never have done so if Rand had not needed her to do it. It never occurred to her until he suggested it. She took it as a favor to him. She resented the idea that he would 'give' her either throne, because that is not how things are done, and it's insulting to her, but Rand doesn't understand these distinctions, so he put her back up when he said he would give her the throne, particularly the throne of Andor. I think part of her knew she'd have a slim chance of gaining the Sun Throne if Rand hadn't announced his support of her, but she didn't think about it that way because he made her angry. But I don't think there are many people daft enough to suggest that Elayne would have claimed the Sun Throne without Rand's need.

Quote:
Do you have any quotes to back up your opinion that "she would never have taken it if Rand didnt feel like he needed her to do it?"
Only the fact that it never occurred to her before he suggested it. That's all that is needed, for anyone with half a brain.

Quote:
Elayne is one of their own by blood as well... without the dark past that hangs on Moiraine.
Elayne herself has stooped to kidnapping, if not assassination (apparently kidnapping is a matter of course in Andor), and her claim to the Sun Throne is through the Damodred name, just like Moiraine's. She is half-Cairhienin by blood, but 100% Andoran in spirit, so there's still quite a difference, there. They don't see her as one of their own; that was made clear when Colavaere took the throne, and further when Dobraine went out of his way to justify Elayne's claim, noting that it bothered him that Taringail had married into Trakand instead of having Morgase marry into Damodred. And meanwhile, Dobraine's...sister? Cousin? Has been rebelling against Morgase since TFOH. An interesting situation, to be sure.

Quote:
I disagree, she already took control of the country
Rand took control of it, really. Way back in TFOH. Dobraine has been handling it since Berelain left in ACOS. Elayne just said a few pretty words.

Quote:
I repeat, Moiraine has never expressed any desire in being a ruler. Infact she has expressed the exact OPPOSITE of desire to be a ruler, and has fled and spent her early years out of the tower to avoid such a thing.
Siuan didn't want to be Amyrlin; every time Moiraine brought it up, she said to not ill-wish her, that she wanted to see the world. She ended up Amyrlin anyway, and she was a good one...and she taught Egwene how to be a good one, too. And again, all of Moiraine's reasons for not wanting to be queen then have been nullified. One of the biggest reasons she didn't want to be queen was the fear that she'd be a puppet of the Hall, for example. Who would want that? But again, the most important reason was that she felt the politics of Cairhien were trivial next to the Dragon Reborn. She was right, but after the Last Battle is won, the most important thing in the world will be maintaining some kind of balance against Seanchan rule, maintaining the freedom of channelers, maintaining the Aiel. As Queen of Cairhien, Moiraine could play an important role in all three.

Quote:
eh, i guess its the FOTM to not bother fleshing theories out these days...
It has nothing to do with not bothering to flesh out the theories, and more with not bothering to venture into fanfic territory. Again, use your own imagination; there's evidence enough to say it will happen, but not enough evidence to say precisely how, so I don't feel the need to stake a claim on that one.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Do you hear what you're saying? He wouldn't stay in Tear because Moiraine was chasing him away. Why? Because she saw that he was settling in, to keep Rand comfortable as a ruler. That is exactly what he would be doing for Moiraine under this theory.
Wrong, as Terez already acknowledged, He was chased out of tear because of his influence with Rand, not because he was setting up shop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
Thom was a drifter because he was depressed and had no place in the world.
Thom was a drifter before his depression with Dena and Morgase. Are you forgetting his story of how he traveled around as court bard? Are you forgetting the many stories he told Mat (and many others) of his past, including his carriage that he left behind?

Are you forgetting how experienced he was in citys like Tanchico? Ebu Dari? etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
He was settling down in Cairhien until Dena was murdered and he lost his anchor to that place. He was settling down in Tear until Moiraine had to play psychological warfare and FORCE him to leave.
Negative. He was settling in as Rand's Advisor, and as such, Rand was drifting away from Moiraine. She removed him to lessen his influence. She even said it in her POV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
There is nothing in Thom's persona that would hinder him from settling down. He's already done it twice before external events took away his reason or ability to do so.
Except the very simple fact that he has never spent more than a handful of years in any one place... you are right


Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
Uh, someone with a far better claim comes along?
Someone with no desire for that claim at all you mean?

Quote:
And Elayne decides her time is better spent trying to rescue her nation from the ashes of the Trolloc assault? If she so much as sets foot in Cairhien while Andor is under existential threat, I can't imagine the nobles there ever forgiving her.
Caemyln is already under attack by Trollocs and Elayne is in neither Andor nor Cairhien, she's at the FoM with both of her armies... will be interesting to see what happens there, but I do not think Elayne or either her Andoran army nor her Caihien army are going to be the ones to do anything about it at all...
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Wrong, as Terez already acknowledged, He was chased out of tear because of his influence with Rand, not because he was setting up shop.
Uh, seriously, read that portion of the book. Moiraine specifically notes that Thom was setting up Rand to stay in Tear and rule. And Thom saw himself as indisposable to Rand. He wouldn't have left him. So he was actively trying to "set up shop" in Tear.


Quote:
Thom was a drifter before his depression with Dena and Morgase. Are you forgetting his story of how he traveled around as court bard?
Court Bards don't really "travel around".

Quote:
Are you forgetting the many stories he told Mat (and many others) of his past, including his carriage that he left behind?
Yes, and how many of them were from after his strings were cut in Andor and he had no place to belong? This doesn't mean he can't settle down, it means he had his settled life taken away and he hadn't found a suitable place to settle down again yet.

Quote:
Are you forgetting how experienced he was in citys like Tanchico? Ebu Dari? etc...
Again, because he was kicked out of his home. We are given no indication that he wanted anything other than to stay in Andor as the resident Bard until things went sour with Morgase.

Quote:
Negative. He was settling in as Rand's Advisor, and as such, Rand was drifting away from Moiraine. She removed him to lessen his influence. She even said it in her POV...
Uh, no shit. And what was he advising Rand to do? Stay in Tear. Sounds awfully like "settling in" to me.

Quote:
Except the very simple fact that he has never spent more than a handful of years in any one place... you are right
Uh, we are given indication that he was in Andor for several years. His drifting was after he was cut loose and had no home.

Quote:
Someone with no desire for that claim at all you mean?
[citation needed]. 20 year old Moiraine is nothing like current Moiraine in many ways. She grew up. Part of growing up is accepting responsibility. And as Terez has noted several times, her reasons for not wanting to exercise the claim are pretty null and void for current Moiraine. She was green and timid in New Spring. She has not been so for a long time.

Quote:
Caemyln is already under attack by Trollocs and Elayne is in neither Andor nor Cairhien, she's at the FoM with both of her armies... will be interesting to see what happens there, but I do not think Elayne or either her Andoran army nor her Caihien army are going to be the ones to do anything about it at all...
Thanks, I had no idea Caemlyn was under attack. My point was, you thought at this point there was no way Elayne would relinquish her claim to Cairhien (which was tenuous to begin with -- even Galad should have a better claim). I was pointing out that she has no real way to hold her claim, and it would reflect very poorly on her if she tried at a time where her people were in such peril. I can't see her NOT relinquishing if someone with a better claim steps forward, as it would be too expensive politically otherwise and would make her look like an imperialist at a time when her people need her undivided attention and support.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:42 PM
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If she's queen of both, then it makes little difference, but either way, he's still a Court Bard. In a way, he always was, hence his disdain for Common and even Plain.
I thought distinctions were important to you

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Zera knows, for one. She doesn't seem like a gossiper, exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised if she has a couple of confidantes. And it's the kind of story that would be beneficial to Thom as a king, so she'd have no reason to keep it secret: he killed Galldrian because Galldrian's men killed the woman he loved. And it just so happens that the next woman he fell in love with was one with a strong claim to Galldrian's throne.
Did Zera survive the civil war and aeil conquest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
He would have stayed there a lot longer if not for Owyn.
Except the fact that he was traveling around before, during and after his bard position in Andor. His story to Mat about the Wife who wanted escape (until he offered it) was during his tenure as Bard, and as he said to Mat, he had a carriage for traveling and money and what not... he was traveling around at that very time when he met here... he was also with the queen... so again, I do not think he was even settled down while he was bard, he still toured around the country doing his thang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
He probably wouldn't have stayed there for long if Dena had lived, unless he could have gotten her a place as a Court Bard somewhere. He didn't think being a gleeman was a fitting life for a woman. But now he has Moiraine, who cares little for music, but tells a fine story.
Moiraine he travels as widely and as often as him... amazing

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
You're trying to make it out like he's got some sort of itch and can't stay in one place for too long, and there's no evidence for it. As a gleeman, he had no choice, particularly considering his warrants, but it wasn't itchy feet that put him on the road, but purpose. Which is, incidentally, the same as Moiraine.
Even as a bard of Caemyln he was still traveling around in his carriage... looking for damsels in distress...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
...which is why he was drinking himself silly in Tar Valon. Elaida was there.
He was drinking away his sorry over Dena and feeling bad about his involvement in the assissination. He wanted to be somewhere risky because I think he was a touch suicidal before Mat found him

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
But also, the job of gleeman requires that he move around a lot, and if he couldn't be a Court Bard, then being a gleeman was the only option to him. You can't stay in one place forever as a gleeman, though he did mention staying a lot longer in the bigger cities where he could get around a lot before moving on.
He moved around a lot as a Bard too... just because he came back to Caemyln and stuck around there doesnt mean he wasnt traveling around in his carriage as he told Mat...


Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
And he would have stayed there if Rand had stayed.
Yes, but you make it out like he was setting up permanent shop in tear, and this was not the case at all. He was setting up shop to be able to aid Rand, he had too much influence so Moiraine got him out of there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
As I said, Moiraine thought it was ironic. There were other reasons why Moiraine was the one out hunting; one of them had to do it, and Siuan was trapped in the Tower, first by Cetalia, and then by being raised Amyrlin. It's not that Moiraine had a problem with it. But she was doing it because she was on a mission, not because she had itchy feet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Blues are often rulers. Lelaine thought Elayne should have been a Blue because she was skilled in politics, generally the best avenue for causes.
Every sister of every ajah wanted any and all three of the super girls merely for the prestige women of such power would give their respective ajahs. Elaida thought she should be red because she found her first... as for blues often being rulers, can you please back this up with some sort of quote? I cant think of a single ruler who was of the blue ajah (outside of the white tower)

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
No, because you're making lazy arguments...the same kind of arguments I see from noobs at Dragonmount (and here for that matter).
I am making lazy arguements? You just tried to act like Thom was settling down in Tear instead of being chased away from his growing influence with Rand... you have yet to provide a single backup quote stating your opinion that Elayne is only taking the throne because Rand wants her to... you have yet to flesh this out with any back up at all... but I am making lazy arguments? as for DM? I wouldnt know what quality of posters they have there, I dont bother reading crap there, but listening to you bash everyone everywhere (here and there and elsewhere) gets old. I am well aware of your personal sense of superiority, I just do not agree it is merited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
I addressed it in the OP of this thread. She took it by her own right, but she would never have done so if Rand had not needed her to do it.
Can you please post some sort of backup from the books for your opinion? Can you show me any evidence from the books that she believes this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
It never occurred to her until he suggested it.
It never occurred to her to invade and conquer any other nation either... Elayne isnt a conquerer of this nature... just because she didnt think of it prior doesnt mean others (like her father) didnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
She took it as a favor to him.
Quote please

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Only the fact that it never occurred to her before he suggested it.
It occurred to her father, and he wasnt the first one who dreamed of uniting those two countries...

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
Rand took control of it, really. Way back in TFOH. Dobraine has been handling it since Berelain left in ACOS. Elayne just said a few pretty words.
A few pretty words that got her seated in the throne, got all the nobles (and their armies) to follow her...


Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
It has nothing to do with not bothering to flesh out the theories, and more with not bothering to venture into fanfic territory. Again, use your own imagination; there's evidence enough to say it will happen, but not enough evidence to say precisely how, so I don't feel the need to stake a claim on that one.
eh, I dont see it happening the way you. Think you will be throwing your fit on this one
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Court Bards don't really "travel around".
..and yet, he did.

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Originally Posted by grig
Yes, and how many of them were from after his strings were cut in Andor and he had no place to belong? This doesn't mean he can't settle down, it means he had his settled life taken away and he hadn't found a suitable place to settle down again yet.
There is not enough information to tell how many were before his post with Morgase or after the falling out. Elayne remembers pulling his mustaches as a child... they were still white then. His story he told Mat was while he was young and before his hair changed color, but he already mentioned he had his position as a court bard (though he didnt say if it was for Andor or not) I do not think Caemyln was his first position as court bard... do you? Do you know how many courts he was bard in?

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Originally Posted by grig
Again, because he was kicked out of his home. We are given no indication that he wanted anything other than to stay in Andor as the resident Bard until things went sour with Morgase.
Except that he was old when Elayne pulled his staches and he himself said he was a bard in his 'young' story to Mat...

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Originally Posted by grig
Uh, we are given indication that he was in Andor for several years. His drifting was after he was cut loose and had no home.
The only indication we are given is that Thom had been involved with political intrigue in many nations for many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
[citation needed]. 20 year old Moiraine is nothing like current Moiraine in many ways. She grew up.
Please provide me with any Moiraine quote to show she has changed her opinion on AS rulers since New Spring...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
Thanks, I had no idea Caemlyn was under attack. My point was, you thought at this point there was no way Elayne would relinquish her claim to Cairhien
My point is there is nothing about Elayne to suggest she will give over anything to anyone. I do not find your little scenero here believable at all. And trying to bring up nobles getting pissy because of this attack... well im pointing out she isnt there with either of her armies... she might come back, but I dont think she will save the day, she will come back to the day already saved and help with the clean up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
I was pointing out that she has no real way to hold her claim,
She has armies in both countries to enforce her claim, she has traveling to hop back and forth, she has an entire army of channelers loyal to her to provide her troops with mobility and healing. I see plenty of ways for her to hold her thrones...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
and it would reflect very poorly on her if she tried at a time where her people were in such peril.
It reflects no more poorly on her than not being there while her capital is under attack now does...


Quote:
Originally Posted by grig
I can't see her NOT relinquishing if someone with a better claim steps forward, as it would be too expensive politically otherwise and would make her look like an imperialist at a time when her people need her undivided attention and support.
I do not believe Moiraine will make any such claim.

...her captial is under attack... shes not there... what will matter is what she does if she finds out. If she runs home and saves the day? people will love her... if someone else saves the day without her? it will be 'politically expensive'... either way whether she and her armies save the day or someone else does, the people arent going to be content with an absentee ruler anyway... this is why i brought up the attack on that city.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:08 PM
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ToM: A Rabbit for Supper

"I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon," Moiraine said. "I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."
Moiraine may have made that statement in reaction to being imprisoned for so long; and maybe to soothe Thom's fears that marriage to her would tie him down to places he dislikes. And it could be foreshadowing that Moiraine will continue to pursue causes as opposed to settling down in one place.

One place Moiraine can have a significant role to play is alongside Mat and Setalle Anan in helping Fortuona overcome a bad habit or two.

Another thing to consider is how possessive and greedy monarchs are when it comes to their claims, let alone their domains. Elayne worked for months to secure her claim to the Sun Throne. And she has taken the Throne. Also, giving up the Sun Throne for Moiraine will be an open admission by Elayne that she isn't fit to rule Cairhien, which will be a major blow to her image in Andor as well. I don't think Elayne would risk that.

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:29 PM
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So the theory here is just the 'Moiraine becomes Queen of Cairhien' (and the Cairhienin will be Cairhienin)?
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:37 PM
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I am 99% sure Elayne was crowned officially on the same day he came to Cairhien in Ch. 52 of ToM, it just happened offscreen and the coronation feast (not the coronation itself) was skipped because there was more important business with the meeting at Merrilor and all. But it doesn't make sense to me for Elayne come to Cairhien, sit on the Sun Throne, start ordering the Cairhien nobles and mobilising their armies if she wasn't crowned too. There was a coronation feast planned this day, so clearly the plan was to have a coronation and nobody said it was postponed.

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:21 PM
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Moiraine is a legend in Cairhien
Come again? She was a legend among the Rebel Aes Sedai, and by now the entire Tower, but where in the world did you get the idea she was a legend in Cairhein? Not one of them has even mentioned her, as far as I remember.

Then there's this:

Quote:
Elayne loved him. But she didn't intend to see Andor become merely another part of the
Dragon's empire. Besides, if Rand were to die at Shayol Ghul, who would rule that empire? It could break up, but she worried that someone, Darlin, perhaps, would be strong enough to hold it together. If so, Andor would stand alone between an aggressive Seanchan empire to the southwest, Rand's successor to the northwest and the southeast and the Borderlanders united together in the north and northeast.
She could not let that happen. The woman in her cringed to think of planning for Rand's
death, but the Queen could not be so squeamish. The world was changing.
"I realize it will be difficult to administer two nations," Elayne said. "But I must hold Cairhien. For the good of both thrones."
Elayne may not have had much enthusiasm for the Sun Throne when she still had Andor to win. But she does now. She sees her holding of the two crowns, and her alliance with Perrin, Ghealdan, Mayene and Saldea, as her trump card against the Seanchan. Add in the Kin, strong White Tower support, and the possibility of her kids having a right to the throne of Illian too, and her strong ties to the Borderlands through Nynaeve... she's setting herself up as the new Hawkwing, the sensible choice to hold together Rand's empire against the Seanchan. I don't see her giving that up, nor do I see Moiaraine wanting to destroy this alliance. She knows as well as any that Seanchan success will only speed up with the other nations divided.

And I really doubt Thom would want to take anything away from Elayne. He thinks she makes a fine queen.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:30 PM
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This idea and the following argument need 3 response.

1. Assuming Moiraine decides to be queen or Carhien Thom would be more than happy to stay with her as he has only been a drifter because he has no place to call home and nobody in his life. He spent years as Morgase's bard and helped her win and maintain the throne and only left when he heard his nephew needed help. Nothing in his personality makes him a drifter he simply has not had a place to call home or somebody to come back to.

2. Even if everyone told the truth do you think anyone outside a handful of friends would even believe it? Beside Carhien nobles think everything from when you wake up in the morning to how long your bath last is a move in the game so no matter what happens the nobles will think its a play.

3. The idea of Thom and Moiraine ruling a nation together almost scares me and I would feel bad for those poor unprepared nobles since they wouldn't know what was about to hit them.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:43 PM
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I admit I havenīt read the whole thread, but thatīs because I never considered Moiraine to be queen of Carhien. In her place I have always imagined that Galad, and Berelain with him, would assume the throne. To me it is more logic. Galad is a Damodred, in direct line for succession, prior to his brother and sister Gwayn AND Elayne. I am not sure if he surpasses Moiraine, but I think he does. And Berelain would be the perfect consort, since she has already governed Cairhine for the Lord Dragon. The Perfect Royal Pair. After all, the Great Captain of the Whitecloaks canīt be married, now, can he? Just my thoughts.

Edit: I just checked on Damodred Family Tree. After Laman Damodredīs death, House Damodred lost the throne as it went to Galdrian Riatin, who died childless. Moiraine was the youngest daughter of Lamanīs yougest brother. Gallad is the first son of Taringail Damodred, nephew of Laman. During Galldrianīs reign, Barthanes Damodred was the Head of House Damodred and he also died without heirs. If linneage was all that mattered it could be that the actual Head of House Damodred (who is...?) would be the next King/Queen of Carhien. But we saw that there are other factors in the equation, as power, money and support from other houses. So it is more a question of having all these beyond the connections to the throne. Moiraine, Galad and Elayne could claim it. But I still bet on Galad. Moiraine has already said she didnīt want it and Elayne will find that she got more than she could hold.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by IvySedai View Post
I admit I havenīt read the whole thread, but thatīs because I never considered Moiraine to be queen of Carhien. In her place I have always imagined that Galad, and Berelain with him, would assume the throne. To me it is more logic. Galad is a Damodred, in direct line for succession, prior to his brother and sister Gwayn AND Elayne. I am not sure if he surpasses Moiraine, but I think he does. And Berelain would be the perfect consort, since she has already governed Cairhine for the Lord Dragon. The Perfect Royal Pair. After all, the Great Captain of the Whitecloaks canīt be married, now, can he? Just my thoughts.

Edit: I just checked on Damodred Family Tree. After Laman Damodredīs death, House Damodred lost the throne as it went to Galdrian Riatin, who died childless. Moiraine was the youngest daughter of Lamanīs yougest brother. Gallad is the first son of Taringail Damodred, nephew of Laman. During Galldrianīs reign, Barthanes Damodred was the Head of House Damodred and he also died without heirs. If linneage was all that mattered it could be that the actual Head of House Damodred (who is...?) would be the next King/Queen of Carhien. But we saw that there are other factors in the equation, as power, money and support from other houses. So it is more a question of having all these beyond the connections to the throne. Moiraine, Galad and Elayne could claim it. But I still bet on Galad. Moiraine has already said she didnīt want it and Elayne will find that she got more than she could hold.
While Galad does have a good claim I always thought he would establish himself with Berelain in Mayene and bring the Children of the Light with him since a powerful military force would actually help the nation stay independent plus I can't see Berelain deciding to give up Mayene and they can't rule both nations since they are rather far apart. Plus I don't see Galad ever even trying to press his claim.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
I thought distinctions were important to you
Sometimes they are important, and sometimes they are not.

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Did Zera survive the civil war and aeil conquest?
We have no reason to believe that she did not. If she was inside the walls during the siege, which seems likely, then she probably survived.

Quote:
Except the fact that he was traveling around before, during and after his bard position in Andor.
And? Still nothing to indicate that he has itchy feet.

Quote:
He was drinking away his sorry over Dena and feeling bad about his involvement in the assissination. He wanted to be somewhere risky because I think he was a touch suicidal before Mat found him
Yes, I know.

Quote:
Yes, but you make it out like he was setting up permanent shop in tear, and this was not the case at all. He was setting up shop to be able to aid Rand, he had too much influence so Moiraine got him out of there.
The point is that he didn't have a problem staying in one place. Your entire argument rests on the notion that he does. It's ridiculous, and I won't waste another word on it, nor will I waste any words on you being lazy and not looking up your own quotes. If you can't remember half the series, then you should probably lay off being aggressive. Ask questions instead of assuming that you are right about everything. I'm not going to run and fetch quotes right and left because you question everything I say. This isn't about me being right about Moiraine being queen. This is about you being lazy and ignorant.

Quote:
It occurred to her father, and he wasnt the first one who dreamed of uniting those two countries...
Oh yes, Taringail Damodred is an excellent role model for Elayne. It's a shame Thom killed him.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
I am 99% sure Elayne was crowned officially on the same day he came to Cairhien in Ch. 52 of ToM, it just happened offscreen and the coronation feast (not the coronation itself) was skipped because there was more important business with the meeting at Merrilor and all. But it doesn't make sense to me for Elayne come to Cairhien, sit on the Sun Throne, start ordering the Cairhien nobles and mobilising their armies if she wasn't crowned too. There was a coronation feast planned this day, so clearly the plan was to have a coronation and nobody said it was postponed.
Elayne very deliberately wrote off the ceremony as unimportant because Tarmon Gai'don was on the doorstep. There was no ceremony off screen; all she did was sit on the throne. And Birgitte sat on it first. There were a few details to go along with Birgitte to make me think that the scene was a ruse plot-wise. "Our sister from Andor..." "Some of you are dissatisfied..." "We will feast when the Last Battle has been won and Cairhien's children are safe..." But despite that the scene annoyed me because it came off as snarky.

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Originally Posted by anenu View Post
The idea of Thom and Moiraine ruling a nation together almost scares me and I would feel bad for those poor unprepared nobles since they wouldn't know what was about to hit them.
Hence the poetic justice of it. The Cairhienin do deserve Moiraine as their ruler. She is one of them. She grew up in the Sun Palace just like Elayne grew up in the Royal Palace in Caemlyn, though Elayne grew up knowing she would be queen and Moiraine did not. Moiraine still spent more years in the Sun Palace than she spent in the Tower, from what we have been led to believe. I don't think any of the surviving Cairhienin nobles grew up in the Sun Palace, though I could be wrong. Caraline might have, but she is married to the King of Tear.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Come again? She was a legend among the Rebel Aes Sedai, and by now the entire Tower, but where in the world did you get the idea she was a legend in Cairhein?
She is a legend among the rebels for what she did in Cairhien. That's all you need to know.

Quote:
Elayne may not have had much enthusiasm for the Sun Throne when she still had Andor to win. But she does now.
She is trying to make the best of the situation she is in.

Quote:
She sees her holding of the two crowns, and her alliance with Perrin, Ghealdan, Mayene and Saldea, as her trump card against the Seanchan.
Moiraine ruling Cairhien will actually make that alliance stronger, since Elayne's attention would not be divided between two nations, and she'd have another Aes Sedai ruler for an ally.

Quote:
And I really doubt Thom would want to take anything away from Elayne. He thinks she makes a fine queen.
He also knows that all she really wants is to be a good queen of Andor. He wouldn't take something from her of his own volition, but I have a feeling that this will be Elayne's idea anyway. I can definitely see Moiraine and Thom both being uneasy about the noble-switching thing, though, and that might possibly come into it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:48 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Elayne very deliberately wrote off the ceremony as unimportant because Tarmon Gai'don was on the doorstep. There was no ceremony off screen; all she did was sit on the throne. And Birgitte sat on it first. There were a few details to go along with Birgitte to make me think that the scene was a ruse plot-wise. "Our sister from Andor..." "Some of you are dissatisfied..." "We will feast when the Last Battle has been won and Cairhien's children are safe..." But despite that the scene annoyed me because it came off as snarky.
Elayne wrote off the coronation feast as unimportant, not the coronation itself. It just makes no sense to come to Cairhien with the intention to claim the Sun Throne, then sit on the throne, be accepted as the Queen by the local nobles, but not get coronated. The coronation could be done in 15 minutes, so lack of time is not a valid excuse.

Come to think of it, who would formally coronate a monarch in Cairhien? In the real world it is usually done by the head of the dominant religious organisation in the realm, but there are no such things in WoT. Rand was crowned in Illian by the Council of Nine, but they have no analogue in Cairhien.

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:24 PM
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Rand is the de facto leader of the Light and hope of all mankind...he would preside over it. Or in his absence, his designated Steward would preside.

Seriously though, I dont see Moiraine taking over Cairhien in any scenario where Elayne is still alive. I could see Elayne making someone like Galad her viceroy there and I could see Elayne simply ruling both nations by herself as with the knowledge of traveling, the distance is a moot point.

That goes for the Galad/Berelain argument too. Distance is no longer an issue as long as you have a couple nearby channelers.
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