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  #1  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:34 PM
rand rand is offline
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Default Hanlon - White Lion to Queen's Guard (how is this possible?)

Maybe I'm forgetting/missing something, but why don't people like Reene Harfor and Halwin Norry recognize Daved Hanlon when he "saves" Elayne and is made a captain, despite the fact that he essentially had the same job a few months beforehand in the White Lions? He would have been in the palace for that job, too, right? Assuming Harfor and Norry know about Rahvin (I don't remember if they do), they should at least be questioning why one of his top followers is back and in a position of power again.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:46 AM
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Maybe I'm forgetting/missing something, but why don't people like Reene Harfor and Halwin Norry recognize Daved Hanlon when he "saves" Elayne and is made a captain, despite the fact that he essentially had the same job a few months beforehand in the White Lions? He would have been in the palace for that job, too, right? Assuming Harfor and Norry know about Rahvin (I don't remember if they do), they should at least be questioning why one of his top followers is back and in a position of power again.
I'm not sure that Rahvin ever brought his White Lions to Caemlyn, let alone into the palace. He didn't need them there, he had Morgase to keep control of the court. So it is entirely possible that no one in Caemlyn had seen Hanlon before.

Then again, one would think that a competent spy master would've figured out that there was a bit of a coincidence with the former leader of a Forsaken's private army now appearing in Elayne's service.
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  #3  
Old 08-09-2012, 05:50 AM
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There's also the problem of the spurs at the Darkfriend Social. Of course, that could have been a disguise.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:24 AM
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I'm not sure that Rahvin ever brought his White Lions to Caemlyn, let alone into the palace. He didn't need them there, he had Morgase to keep control of the court. So it is entirely possible that no one in Caemlyn had seen Hanlon before.

Then again, one would think that a competent spy master would've figured out that there was a bit of a coincidence with the former leader of a Forsaken's private army now appearing in Elayne's service.
Perhaps Norry is a Darkfriend too...
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:00 AM
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Perhaps Norry is a Darkfriend too...
You? No!
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:04 AM
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But Norry isn't a competent spymaster. He was forced into the job. In brief, he is several leagues below Thom's level.
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:29 AM
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Several leagues? I don't think so. Norry shares several traits with Balwer, and I wouldn't be so quick to take him at face value. He argues that his sources are merely correspondents, but a good spymaster would do exactly that. Balwer does it too. Few can compete with Thom, but don't sell old Norry short.
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2012, 11:35 AM
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Several leagues? I don't think so. Norry shares several traits with Balwer, and I wouldn't be so quick to take him at face value. He argues that his sources are merely correspondents, but a good spymaster would do exactly that. Balwer does it too. Few can compete with Thom, but don't sell old Norry short.
Thanks for reminding of Balwer. He's probably close to Thom's level at information gathering, not field operations (killing a king!!!!). But Norry was forced into the job; and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.
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  #9  
Old 08-09-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
But Norry was forced into the job
You keep saying that, but it's not true.

Quote:
...and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.
You talking about this?

Quote:
Master Norry cleared his throat. "Your Majesty, Lady Dyelin's advice is not born of idle speculation. I, um, have heard things. Knowing of your interests in Cairhien. . . ."

He'd been growing better at gathering informants. She'd turn him into a regular spymaster yet!

1. Not what you said.

2. I don't take anything Brandon writes at face value. Most of the complexities of WoT were in RJ's head, and Brandon hasn't had nearly enough time to figure them all out.

Norry was not really in spymaster mode when Elayne showed up, but he had the skills already (not to mention the correspondents), and no doubt built a better network without any help from Elayne. She had advantages over him because of gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod, connections in high places, etc. but that does not mean that Norry is not skilled.
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  #10  
Old 08-09-2012, 12:17 PM
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Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.
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  #11  
Old 08-09-2012, 12:44 PM
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Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.
Why?

Which question, you may note, fits right into the topic of this thread.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2012, 04:01 PM
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You talking about this?
I think he was talking about a quote that would support his argument, not yours. Maybe it was from the chapter where Norry blew the Duhara situation.
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Using Elayne as a judge of character/ability is hilarious.
For us, yes. But within the WoT universe, she's goddamn Machiavelli.

Still 2nd amongst the Supergirls.

(Maybe this needs a new thread too, Ishara? Or do we really not care?)
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2012, 04:16 PM
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I think he was talking about a quote that would support his argument, not yours. Maybe it was from the chapter where Norry blew the Duhara situation.
That's not what he said.
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Old 08-09-2012, 04:29 PM
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That's not what he said.
While self-rated fallibility of internet posters is at an all-time low, maybe he's in the minority. Or maybe someone mentioned Cairhien in the scene. IDK.
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2012, 10:35 PM
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You keep saying that, but it's not true.


You talking about this?
I'll reply to the second point first, here's what I am talking about (which was a few paragraphs after your quote):

Quote:
Dyelin and Master Norry nodded. Eventually, she would probably have to build a stronger network of eyes-and-ears, as neither of these two was perfectly suited to leading them. Norry was too obvious, and he already had enough to do with his other duties.
As to the first point, Norry was the Royal Palace's chief clerk, if I remember his official title. He was Andor's "Finance Minister" and probably chief administrator.

Elayne was forced to use him as an information gatherer to fill (partially) a deficiency in her ruling apparatus during the Caemlyn siege and shortly afterwards.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:36 PM
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As to the first point, Norry was the Royal Palace's chief clerk, if I remember his official title. He was Andor's "Finance Minister" and probably chief administrator.

Elayne was forced to use him as an information gatherer to fill (partially) a deficiency in her ruling apparatus during the Caemlyn siege and shortly afterwards.
You're changing your story now. Norry was not forced into the job, and his obviousness has nothing whatsoever to do with his skills.
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:42 PM
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Thanks for reminding of Balwer. He's probably close to Thom's level at information gathering, not field operations (killing a king!!!!). But Norry was forced into the job; and Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM when discussing Cairhien with Norry and Dyelin.
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
You're changing your story now. Norry was not forced into the job, and his obviousness has nothing whatsoever to do with his skills.
Two points in my quote above:
- Norry forced into the job
- Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM.

Is the provided quote sufficient to verify the second point?
Quote:
Dyelin and Master Norry nodded. Eventually, she would probably have to build a stronger network of eyes-and-ears, as neither of these two was perfectly suited to leading them. Norry was too obvious, and he already had enough to do with his other duties.
As to the first point, maybe the word "forced" is misleading in what I was trying to convey. Elayne had to use Norry as a spymaster (external) and Harfor as an internal security spymistress. She didn't have any other alternatives.

Last edited by maleshub; 08-09-2012 at 11:35 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2012, 02:46 AM
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Keep in mind that Balwer was officially just a secretary. It's not unlikely that Norry was Morgase's spymaster too and Elayne thought his publicly known office was his real one because Morgase never let her in on the secret.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
Two points in my quote above:
- Norry forced into the job
- Elayne was thinking about the need to have a better spymaster in ToM.

Is the provided quote sufficient to verify the second point?
No, for reasons I already explained. I'm starting to get the feeling you're trolling.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
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I'm starting to get the feeling you're trolling.
I said that Elayne was thinking of replacing Norry; and supplied a quote to support that statement. I don't know if that is trolling because honestly I don't know what it means.

I highly respect your posts and your status in this forum and in WoT universe. There is something to learn from you in every discussion. But that won't stop me from discussing a point; and I won't turn off my own thinking and understanding of WoT, deficient as it may be, to discuss what is posted on the forums. There are some discussions that I know are out of my league like the Sorilea discussion. But my understanding of Elayne and Rand's women is slightly better.

So, it saddens me that you think this discussion is "trolling."

Last edited by maleshub; 08-10-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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