art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-22-2012, 04:00 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,097
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default Ishmael was there? Or not?

In EotW, Ishmael stands in front of crazed Lews Therin and gives him his moment of clarity regarding Ilyena's death.

Later, when visiting Rand in his dreams he says:

Quote:
TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"Fool, I have never been bound!" The fires of his face roared so hot that Rand stepped back, sheltering behind his hands. The sweat on his palms dried from the heat. "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. It was I who gave him the moment of sanity to know what he had done.
Do we have any information on this? Was Ish truly THERE when Lews Therin killed them, did he tell him to do it while the taint was feeding on his soul? Or was this posturing by Ish, trying to say he did more, saw more, said more than he truly did and was taking credit for something to scare Rand? It just seems odd he would be there for the killing, leave, then return. Not to mention the disdain he showed for the dead when he spoke to the mad Lews Therin as if seeing them for the first time.


Edited for clarity, then re-edited
__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001

Last edited by SauceyBlueConfetti; 08-22-2012 at 04:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-22-2012, 04:02 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

It wasn't just disdain for the dead; he was also surprised when he took in the details of the scene:

Quote:
"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"

The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?"
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Yeah, I'd say this would a prime example of RJ asking if we believed everything Ishamael said. I don't think he was there, but was more than willing to take credit for the horror.
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper

Last edited by Ishara; 08-22-2012 at 09:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-22-2012, 05:31 PM
Ivhon's Avatar
Ivhon Ivhon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Blue Star Deep in the Heart of Tejas
Posts: 3,672
Ivhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Ivhon Send a message via Yahoo to Ivhon
Default

Or his eyes could have widened in surprise that LTT doesn't remember or even see what he has done.
__________________
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Ghandi

Proud owner of the first post on TL's VBulletin forum (sorry...I had ta )

Greeter Emeritus
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Yes, but his words indicate that he hasn't seen Lews Therin since the taint got him. And if the taint didn't have him so far when he supposedly whispered in his ear then he wouldn't have had any reason to believe that Lews Therin would actually do it.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-22-2012, 05:42 PM
Ivhon's Avatar
Ivhon Ivhon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Blue Star Deep in the Heart of Tejas
Posts: 3,672
Ivhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Ivhon Send a message via Yahoo to Ivhon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, but his words indicate that he hasn't seen Lews Therin since the taint got him. And if the taint didn't have him so far when he supposedly whispered in his ear then he wouldn't have had any reason to believe that Lews Therin would actually do it.
Or maybe Ishamael's not so surprised that he would do it, just that he's so far gone he can't even see what he's done when it is lying right in front of him. I mean, the poor nutter is calling for a wife who's dead body is in plain sight.
__________________
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Ghandi

Proud owner of the first post on TL's VBulletin forum (sorry...I had ta )

Greeter Emeritus
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:32 PM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 261
Great Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to allGreat Lord of the Dark is a name known to all
Default Mild exagerration

Ishamael is simply exagerrating ever so slightly. He showed up within minutes of Lews Therin killing his wife and family. The damage is so recent the palace stil is graoning from damage to its foundations, motes of dust still hang in the air. Ishamael wasn't there at the precise moment Lews Therin murdered Ilyena, but he missed it by less than a minute or two.

He is telling the truth, as he sees it, and the difference is semantics.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-23-2012, 04:52 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,869
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Ishamael was being "creative with the truth", as it's called.
He did not stand at LTT's shoulder when that one did the killing.
He did not make suggestions about whom LTT should kill; if he'd done that, he would probably have been a casualty too himself.
But he did give LTT that moment of sanity, in which LTT realised what he had actually done.

And, finally, the first: he was bound, but not quite as much as the others. They were bound with cuendillar chains, Ishamael with bungee cord, so that he could bounce in and out of time/existence/whatever*.

* I think that "whatever" is the most accurate, even though it isn't really all that informative.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:53 AM
WinespringBrother's Avatar
WinespringBrother WinespringBrother is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,889
WinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to WinespringBrother
Default

Ishy was certainly there in spirit at least during the deed, but was wise enough to stay clear of a rampaging madman who was blindly killing everyone around him with elemental forces. And who is going to call him on that lie, anyway? Not to mention the fact that Ishamael was a few bricks short of a full load himself, and may have convinced himself over the subsequent millenia that he was there.
__________________
Mera'Daghain M'hael

"Oh, y'all [Theorylanders] are awesome with awesome sauce, but you ask a lot of tricky questions. I had to watch myself with you guys." - Maria

"I need to RAFO more things, I'm not being very Robert Jordan..." - Brandon
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:25 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Or maybe just maybe Ishy was referring to the DO manipulating LTT's mind while in the grip of the taint?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-01-2012, 07:32 AM
padfoot89 padfoot89 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 171
padfoot89 will become famous soon enoughpadfoot89 will become famous soon enough
Default

Is there a reason why Lews Therin did not attack Ishamael when he popped up ? I thought he was at the "kill anything that moves" stage.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-01-2012, 08:05 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,869
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by padfoot89 View Post
Is there a reason why Lews Therin did not attack Ishamael when he popped up ? I thought he was at the "kill anything that moves" stage.
Nah, he'd gotten over that. Now he was at the "let's all sit around the corpses and sing kumbaya" stage". If only Ishamael had gone along with it, the entire Third Age would have been vastly different.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-02-2012, 06:28 AM
Tomp's Avatar
Tomp Tomp is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,229
Tomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant future
Default

Does anyone know how long time it takes from that the Saa is formed in the eyes until you have fiery eyes and mouth?

The same question in another way.
How long until Moridin gets his fiery eyes and mouth?
__________________
A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells us the truth about its author. (Chesterton)
What is worse? To be asked to die for your country; or be asked to kill for your country? (Bergström)
Never judge a book by its movie. (Eagan)
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. (Marx)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-03-2012, 02:31 PM
Enigma Enigma is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,064
Enigma will become famous soon enoughEnigma will become famous soon enough
Default

I don't think RJ ever fully answered how long it takes for the fire eyes to show up. My understanding is that it is the end stage of the cycle of using the True Power and death is around the corner unless the DO is willing to step in.

Likewise I think the black flecks is a middle stage. If I remember correctly one of the forsaken commented on the specks when Moridin used the TP and it was something like he must have been using it exclusivly to be that far advanced. We know that Graendal used the TP to impress forsaken with her lin the last book but she had to brush his/her cheek with the weave so she would know Graendal had access to the TP. Presumably she does not have the black flecks but most of the forsaken don't use it very often.

If your looking for more info I think RJ touched on it a bit during a very extensive taped interview he did in eastern Europe, I think it was Budapest and it should be knocking around somewhere.
__________________
Everyone has a right to my opinion
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-05-2012, 09:48 PM
neurotopia neurotopia is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 86
neurotopia is just really niceneurotopia is just really niceneurotopia is just really niceneurotopia is just really niceneurotopia is just really niceneurotopia is just really nice
Default

It seemed weird to me that basically Moridin showed up with the saa almost immediately. Is it possible that Moridin's body belonged to another dark channeler who had TP access, and Ishy inherited it?

Ishy is a bit unhinged and would probably think of anything associated with the DO's actions as being "his", since Ishy is the proxy chosen to fight for the DO. They're near-one and the same in his eyes.

Last edited by neurotopia; 09-05-2012 at 09:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-05-2012, 10:01 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,097
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
I don't think RJ ever fully answered how long it takes for the fire eyes to show up. My understanding is that it is the end stage of the cycle of using the True Power and death is around the corner unless the DO is willing to step in.

Likewise I think the black flecks is a middle stage. If I remember correctly one of the forsaken commented on the specks when Moridin used the TP and it was something like he must have been using it exclusivly to be that far advanced. We know that Graendal used the TP to impress forsaken with her lin the last book but she had to brush his/her cheek with the weave so she would know Graendal had access to the TP. Presumably she does not have the black flecks but most of the forsaken don't use it very often.

If your looking for more info I think RJ touched on it a bit during a very extensive taped interview he did in eastern Europe, I think it was Budapest and it should be knocking around somewhere.
Go to the interview database HERE and type in SAA. For anyone looking for supporting info/details, the database is great and easy to use
__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:33 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 96
Lost One is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Ishmael.. The Betrayer of Hope

I think it was a little of both. In the prologue of TEOTW, Elan Morin Teldronai arrives soon after Lews Therin kills his family/household (without glowing eyes or black dots), talks with LTT, heals him, and gloats. While he is evidently a bad guy, he does not seem mad/loony/crackers... too much.

Later discussions,however, amongst the other Chosen imply that his is not all there, even to the extent that someone made the comment that "he thinks he is the Great Lord". Why else appear to everyone; Shadowspawn, Friends of the Dark, as well as the Boys as the Great Lord.

We know he was never bound as well as the other chosen. That was one thing that had bothered me; on the one hand, he was sealed away before LTT went mad, but yet, he was already out when LTT kill his family. Over the past three millenia, he did directly influence events. He somehow led during the Trollic Wars, and he influenced Artur Pendraeg Tanreal, "I whispered into his ear and across the breadth of the land, Aes Sedai died". Of course I can't find the source for that now, it is from a dream sequence in either TGH or TDR. It evidently was sometime during this period that he got the Saa, and Saa Advanced.

So I think Elan was boasting/ranting.

Ona related note, I do not think that Lews Therin went on a killing spree. He was in the grip of madness. I think that he just started throwing weaves on people, not knowing that he was killing them in much the same way a toddler might pull the ears/tail of the family pet while not knowing that this is hurting it. Maybe like "Oh my, son, you look hilarious sunk halfway through the floor" By the time Elan arrived, he had become distracted and was no longer playing with the power/
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:51 PM
suttree's Avatar
suttree suttree is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 544
suttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant future
Default Ishy

I think beyond the TP being partially sealed and then spun out/locked back in over intervals of time would drive just about anyone mad. Further it is speculated in the BWB that he wasn't sealed in at the same time as the other Forsaken, it took some 40 years for him to be drawn fully into the trap.
__________________
"Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.