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  #1  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:02 PM
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I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I missed it, so I'll ask again for the abbreviated response.

Have we ever determined whether the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon are equally valid as the Westland version, or are they a partial corruption. Tuon thinks of several prophecies that come true, and its not impossible that valid Foretellings happened over there, but a lot of their Prophecy regarding Rand seems a little too conveniently tailored to their own social/political realities (i.e. him kneeling to the Empress).
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere, but I missed it, so I'll ask again for the abbreviated response.

Have we ever determined whether the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon are equally valid as the Westland version, or are they a partial corruption. Tuon thinks of several prophecies that come true, and its not impossible that valid Foretellings happened over there, but a lot of their Prophecy regarding Rand seems a little too conveniently tailored to their own social/political realities (i.e. him kneeling to the Empress).
The original Seanchan version of the Kareathon seems to be correct. The ones that Luthair brought with him that they now regard as "pure" appear to be tampered with by Ishy however.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:10 PM
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They have their own, valid, Prophecies. However, it's still possible that that single bit is a falsification intended to drive a wedge between the Seanchan and the Dragon. If so, then it happened with the copy of the KC which Luthair Paendrag took with him. It is also possible the bit spelling out how he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him' was excised from that copy.
If so, then both changes were probably done by Ishamael, who engineered the conquest of the Seanchan by Luthair, and had a clear motive for making this kind of trouble.

RJ has said that the Seanchan prophecies in general were accurate, but I don't think he has ever said anything explicitly about these two passages.
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Old 09-10-2012, 09:30 PM
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Default Both true

I think they were both true. Ishamael needn't have been involved for transcription errors or for translators to interpret differently. Luthair's language prevailed after the consolidation but whatever the Seanchan spoke also had its roots in the Old tongue, so they could have read the original prophecies Luthair brought with him and said the correct translation for a particular old tongue word is actually something other than what the Mainlanders said. Even translators on this side of the ocean diasgreed frequently.

The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.

If Ishamael did tamper, he likely only introduced true elements from his own book of Dark Prophecy. He always likes to stay close to the truth when he misleads.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
I think they were both true. Ishamael needn't have been involved for transcription errors or for translators to interpret differently. Luthair's language prevailed after the consolidation but whatever the Seanchan spoke also had its roots in the Old tongue, so they could have read the original prophecies Luthair brought with him and said the correct translation for a particular old tongue word is actually something other than what the Mainlanders said. Even translators on this side of the ocean diasgreed frequently.

The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.

If Ishamael did tamper, he likely only introduced true elements from his own book of Dark Prophecy. He always likes to stay close to the truth when he misleads.
It has to be more than just a few translation differences...

Quote:
tPoD CHP 24 (Miraj PoV):
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were in corrupted form too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still.

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Old 09-10-2012, 11:40 PM
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Brandon confirmed there has been some tampering. My belief is that it will make little difference in the end since both sides believe their prophecies to be true.
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Old 09-11-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
The Court of the Nine Moons and the Royal Family may only have come into existence decades, maybe centuries after Luthair first arrived. No reason to excise that passage from the Prophecies.
Could you please run this past me just a trifle slower?

The bit which I fail to understand is why, if their Prophecies say that the Dragon Reborn will "bind the nine moons to serve him" any ruler in his right mind would adopt the name "Nine Moons" at all. It's a bit like an American presidential candidate running on "I think I'm the Antichrist, and if I am not, then I wish I was". Not very believable, to say the least.

So it makes more sense that the Nine Moons reference was taken out before Luthair's descendants managed to conquer that particular place, and now they (Tuon) don't know what should and shouldn't be done.

Similarly, if there'd been a reference to the Dragon serving the Crystal Throne, then the Amyrlin would've been sitting on one.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
They have their own, valid, Prophecies. However, it's still possible that that single bit is a falsification intended to drive a wedge between the Seanchan and the Dragon. If so, then it happened with the copy of the KC which Luthair Paendrag took with him.
It should be noted that the Essanik Cycle is NOT the same thing as the Karetheon Cycle -- any more than the Aiel Prophecies or Jendai Prophecies are the same thing at the KC.

As noted by BG Miraj, the KC was known in Seanchan before Luthair's arrival. The "corruption" of Seanchan Prophecy only involves the differences between pre-luthar and post-luthair version of the KC. There is, (or should be,) no question of the Essanik cycle being corrupted.

However, the bottom line is that we only positively know what BG Miraj revealed in the quote above: The copy brought by Luthair is considered the correct version by the Seanchan and "corrupted" copies don't mention the DR serving the Crystal Throne.
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:29 AM
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27. Essanik, so questionable authenticity. Maybe only the Karaethon sent over was actively corrupted, but the Essanik were spoken by damane. So post-Luthair. And the transcribers may have seen fit to slip in a little imperial propaganda. Maybe there was a mention of the Dragon approaching the most powerful woman (or just person, but if it's specifically a woman it may explain why Luthair's son was one of the last Emperors of Seanchan, if not the last. A little bit like forcing the prophecy) in the world with humility and respect, and his need to acknowledge her power and/or success. Now, it may have been fulfilled when Rand saw Egwene in the White Tower: he acknowledged her power and success, wasn't arrogant, and she might have been the world's most powerful woman at the time. Of course, this isn't in the KC, instead there is the Foretelling on the Amyrlin's anger (which was also misinterpreted). But a devout imperial transcriber may have honestly thought it was obviously referring to the current Empress, and may have written it down as such.
From my old prophecy thread. The Essanik was spoken post-Luthair, by Imperial damane. I would find the Essanik suspect by that alone, whatever tongue it was spoken in originally.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:24 AM
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From my old prophecy thread. The Essanik was spoken post-Luthair, by Imperial damane. I would find the Essanik suspect by that alone, whatever tongue it was spoken in originally.
Whether the Essanik is accurate or not has no bearing on which version of the Karetheon Cycle is accurate.

I would tend to rely on the Pattern to ensure accurate transcription from the original source; Prophecy does no good if there isn't an accurate transcription of the original source.

I would expect some suppression of unpalatable passages, but doubt that any alterations were done for imperial reasons. Suspicions about Ishamael's tampering with Luthair's copy suggest there may have been alterations for non-imperial reasons, but the same could be said of westland (uncorrupted) copies of the KC. We tend to trust those copies of the KC, though because RJ said "Prophecy always comes true," and at that time, we only knew of the KC (and Aiel) prophecies.
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Old 09-11-2012, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tPoD CHP 24 (Miraj PoV)
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were in corrupted form too--not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!--but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still.
And who said that those pre-Luthairian copies were corrupted?
The Seanchan imperial family, which, it just so happens, had the 'correct' version. Which, funnily, happens to be different from the version which is found on the mainland now too.

The simplest and most believable explanation by far is that those early Seanchan copies weren't corrupted at all; that they were the same as the version that is now available in Randland. Of course, because of the censorship used, it's impossible to determine this now, unless RJ left something about this in his notes.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:14 PM
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And who said that those pre-Luthairian copies were corrupted?
Interestingly, BG Miraj apparently knew which passages/verses to check for "corruption." That suggests that there is still an active campaign to suppress "corrupted versions" in Seanchan; old copies still turning up often enough to keep the knowledge of specific differences alive?

Sadly, the only difference we know of is the "serving the Empress" clue given here. Most people make the connection between Moiraine's cryptic mention of "bind the nine moons to him" as the obvious text for "serve the Empress of the Nine Moons" to have replaced, but that is only a guess.

Changing one line, while significant to the plot, doesn't rise to the level of "much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought." We may never know what other differences there are that rise to that level.
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:08 PM
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Default The court of the nine moons

Some of the others seem vastly more knowledgeable about the relevant prophecy quotes than I, who was merely speaking from what I recall of Seanchan history.

Luthair found a continent of warring and scheming factions, and began a conquest which only ended centuries later, when his bloodline was already firmly established as the herdeitary rulers of the continent. Either the Court of the Nine Moons predates Luthair's arrival and he took it for his own , or (more likely I think) his success was such that he or his followers named the Court of the Nine Moons in the belief that this would ensure that the Dragon knelt to the Royal Family, thus keeping the Empress at the pinnacle of society. Nothing, not even the Dragon should displace the Empress from her station.

The point being that the Court could have been named well after the Luthair version became the established bible of the Seanchan nobility.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
...

The point being that the Court could have been named well after the Luthair version became the established bible of the Seanchan nobility.
The problem with that is that we've seen no evidence that "the nine moons" are even mentioned in the Luthair version.

The only mention of "the nine moons" in prophecy that we've seen is the cryptic mention by Moiraine as an example of a passage that is not understood. (I'm not counting the *finn's answer to Mat as Prophecy.)

BG Miraj mentions the DR serving the Empress (MSLF) and Tuon mentions prophecy requiring the Dragon Reborn to kneel before the Crystal Throne -- Neither makes any connection to "the nine moons."

Common consensus is that the "bind the nine moons" passage is missing from the Luthair version and "kneel before the Crystal Throne" and/or "serve the Empress (MSLF)" has been added -- they seem mutually exclusive clauses.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:23 AM
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Why mutually exclusive? It's possible to bind someone to you by serving them (what Moiraine did to get Rand to trust her.) And kneeling before the Crystal Throne doesn't mean a lot. Rand is capable of showing respect to get what he wants (in the White Tower, to the Borderlanders, etc.)

Interestingly, it's phrased as kneel before the crystal throne. Everyone else prostrates themself before the empress, suggesting that the Dragon has some special rank.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:03 PM
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...And kneeling before the Crystal Throne doesn't mean a lot. ...
From the Encyclopedia WOT:
Quote:
Crystal Throne

The throne of the Empress of Seanchan in the Court of the Nine Moons in Seandar.
References

Guide - The Crystal Throne is, in fact, a ter'angreal that inspires awe in all who approach.
Kneeling before the Crystal Throne is NOT a mere symbolic act.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:08 AM
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Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:42 AM
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Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.
Depends:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoD, Chapter 24, A Time for Iron
Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues.
Of course, we don't know upon what it depends, which is a bit of a problem when it comes to building solid theories.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Are the effects permanent or do they fade as soon as someone leaves the room? Rand is smart enough to realise 'wait...it's not like me to feel in awe of a chair'. It's not a huge problem.
Part of the problem with kneeling before the Crystal Throne isn't really the "awe" produced, but that n trying to force that Prophecy, the Seanchan would drag Rand to Seanchan and thus out of position for T'G. (somewhat like Rommel being back in Germany on D-Day instead of where he could command the defense of Normandy.)

The ter'angreal aspect is what makes the "bind" and "serve" passages mutually exclusive, not necessarily what makes the corruption of the Prophecy effective for the Shadow.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:58 PM
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It should be noted that the effect is resistible as mentioned by RJ during the KoD tour.


Quote:
Mad Cao:
I then asked if Semirhage was somehow immune to the effects of the Crystal Throne.


Robert Jordan:
He said that she certainly was.
Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.

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