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  #1  
Old 09-23-2012, 02:26 AM
nagarue nagarue is offline
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Default Rahvin

I posted here last sometime around the release of Towers of Midnight. The post was of a theory that Rahvin was alive, was responsible for the death of Asmodean and was now posing as Taim.

I promised that I would reread the series taking notes and make an updated theory post prior to the release of the last book.

Some point still early on in my reread I was researching again information on varied sights quoting information related to my theory. I was a bit thunderstruck when I came across a quote from Robert Jordan saying Rahvin was dead, there seemed no way around this and I couldn't understand how I had missed this before.

Combined with the undeniable revelation of the one responsible for Asmodeans murder I lost heart and gave up on the theory. I was still convinced that Robert Jordan intended the story to go this way but had changed his mind somewhere between The Fires of Heaven and The Lord of Chaos because it was to obvious and because it would be a major end game revelation.

I no longer have any intention of going through the series in the detail I had intended sadly I don't have the time or energy for it. Over the years I had never given up on this theory and had found a fair amount of information that I thought supported one element or another of the theory.

Tonight as I was continuing my reread from A Crown of Swords my mind drifted a bit and I found myself revisiting this old theory again, I'm sure also some of the recent speculation I have read over the new prolog also lead me in this direction.

I was grouping around again and stumbled on to something completely obvious. Two quotes reported as from Robert Jordan where at the heart of my probing.

The first is related to Rahvin's death he was balefired by Rand and yet wounds inflicted by Rahvin remained on Rand. This led to much speculation at the time and eventually the question was asked of R.J. and he reportedly stated "Because his injuries occurred in Tel'aran'rhiod. And what occurs there is different than what occurs in the waking world. Different rules apply".

The Second thing reportedly said by R.J. I currently don't have the quote for but it was simply enough, he had directly stated Rahvin was dead. This information once taken into consideration with the first quote opens the obvious loop hole once again. If the effects in
Tel'aran'rhiod are different to the point where Rand's wounds are not removed dose this mean there is also a chance that someone balefired in Tel'aran'rhiod can be restored by the darkone.

I have copy\pasted some information on balefire and how it works from R.J. below. That would lend support to my new theory that Rahvin's soul was available for a short time despite balefire because it was done in Tel'aran'rhiod. The first explains how the DO gathers souls and the second explains effects of balefre in Tel'aran'rhiod that could explain how Rahvin's soul might have been available.



Quote 1

"There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do."



Quote 2

"I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/Tel'aran'rhiod question—when someone is balefired, the constructs they make in Tel'aran'rhiod do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with Tel'aran'rhiod and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example."
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:04 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagarue View Post
I have copy\pasted some information on balefire and how it works from R.J. below. That would lend support to my new theory that Rahvin's soul was available for a short time despite balefire because it was done in Tel'aran'rhiod. The first explains how the DO gathers souls and the second explains effects of balefre in Tel'aran'rhiod that could explain how Rahvin's soul might have been available.
A fairly big problem for your idea is that the DO himself does not seem to believe that it might have been possible:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC, Prologue, The First Message
THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and – could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?
It is of course possible that the DO was telling lies here, that he was faking his anger and frustration. But there doesn't seem to be any possible gain for him in that.
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Old 09-23-2012, 07:32 AM
nagarue nagarue is offline
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Default why the DO mislead

Thanks for the reply, I was aware of that passage and had varied theories about it in my original theories but the validity of each depended on other things. In the current state of affairs I would say that the DO had an good reason to lie. Consider that if Rahvin was meant to come back as Taim with a specific mission where he was to be undercover serving the Dragon as something of a spy then the DO had reason to keep his identity secret from everyone and now that Taims work is nearly complete and the DO is about to break free and launch his last battle there is no need for as much secrecy and actually serves him better for the remaining chosen to know which side Taim is on so he has Moradin reveal that and clearly set Taims rank so there are no confusing issues in the ranks.

Also I think the DO lied more by omission then anything he cant save him from balefire in the real world but maybe he can from alefire in
Tel'aran'rhiod where constructs don't disappear but slowly fade away, perhaps they slowly fade away because the spirit of the one balefired is also slowly fading.

In the end your probably right and Taim is just Taim but i am happy that up to the last book I can still make a possible theory on this. Though I wonder that no one had asked Jordan directly if it was possible to bring someone back who was balefired in Tel'aran'rhiod, perhaps they have and i missed it.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:00 AM
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RJ confirmed what the Dark One said, to our very own bossman:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=198#12
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:41 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
RJ confirmed what the Dark One said, to our very own bossman:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=198#12
Might have been easier to find if there had been a Rahvin tag on it. If someone adds that, then a Be'lal tag too might be useful.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Might have been easier to find if there had been a Rahvin tag on it. If someone adds that, then a Be'lal tag too might be useful.
I try to be parsimonious with the tags because when you click the Rahvin tag you don't want a bunch of quotes that only mention Rahvin off-handedly and don't reveal anything about him. It never occurred to me that anyone would question the fact that Rahvin was not eligible for transmigration. But if they believed that, the transmigration tag would be a good one to use to investigate the matter. And a search of 'Rahvin' brings up every quote dealing with him. Which is why I didn't bother to use the tag; I just searched 'Rahvin'.

Now, Be'lal. That subject comes up more often due to Moiraine's presumed weakness, so it's probably worth a tag. (Obviously she thinks her balefire isn't worth much, but it appears to be worth much more than what Rand used on the Shadowspawn in Caemlyn after he killed Rahvin.)
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:21 PM
nagarue nagarue is offline
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Default Last feeble point

Alright fairly hard to refute erm maybe impossible. I have one last issue though an alternate way Rahvin might have survived.

R.J. has confirmed Rahvin was balefired out of time so the DO cannot transmigrate him however does that rule out Rahvin from saving himself. Let us suppose for a moment that time in Tel'aran'rhiod is not completely parallel to time in the real world.

So at the moment of Rahvins death he is unreachable in the real world but in the dream world in part because of the time differential what ever is left of his essence is fading in and out and he manages to transmigrate himself into or with Taim from within the dreamworld perhaps resulting in something similar to Isam/Luc.

Maybe anything involving time is out however because of the R.J statement.

Yes I know I'm grasping at Asmodeans tuft of grass while i dangle over the cliff.


Thanks everyone for the knowledgeable and considerate responses.
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Old 09-23-2012, 07:20 PM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default Til shade is gone

Personally, I never let author quotes stop a good theory.

I find your concept intriguing and would like to sign up for your newsletter.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:23 PM
nagarue nagarue is offline
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I'm afraid I don't have a newsletter but I did find your blog interesting, Thanks.
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