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  #1  
Old 10-03-2012, 11:39 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Default The REAL Problem With Gateways....

So this question was on xkcd's whatif section today:

Quote:
Q: What would happen if you opened a portal between Boston (sea level) and Mexico City (elev. 8000+ feet)?
—Jake G.
A: Bernoulli’s principle gives us this estimate of the air flow rate:

[blah blah] = 440 mph
Wow. Think about what should have happened when Rand opened a gateway from a port city, to the top of Dragonmount...
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:48 AM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
So this question was on xkcd's whatif section today:



Wow. Think about what should have happened when Rand opened a gateway from a port city, to the top of Dragonmount...
The difference in momentum between Boston's latitude and Mexico City's latitude should cause problems, too.

Obviously, Gateways compensate for pressure and absolute velocity differences magically, or Traveling wouldn't be possible at all.
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:01 AM
codetoast codetoast is offline
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I don't think sound can go through gateways based on this quote:
Quote:
Bandar Eban vanished, those too-silent people vanished. The moment he passed through the gateway, cheers exploded from the waiting crowds. It was so shocking, such a contrast, that Rand pulled Tai'daishar up short, stunned.
I can't imagine it would have been cool for the starving people of bandar eban to hear Rand getting cheered as he departed there city leaving them to die. Anyways, if sound can't go through, then the person can probably choose to prevent pressure differences from blowing their pants off as soon as they open the portal.
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:24 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by codetoast View Post
I don't think sound can go through gateways based on this quote:
I think that Elayne thinks differently based on this quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoD, Chapter 2, Unweaving
I should have stayed with her. Elayne rejected the thought immediately. Whatever excuse she gave, Aviendha would know the truth, and she was touchy as a man, sometimes. Most of the time. Especially when it bore upon her honor. With a sigh, Elayne let the Atha’an Miere crowd her further from the gateway as they filed through. She stayed close enough to hear any shout on the other side, though. Close enough to leap to Aviendha’s aid in a heartbeat. And for another reason.
Of course, sometimes Elayne's judgment isn't entirely dependable, so there's that.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:35 AM
Whizbang Whizbang is offline
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Not being able to hear through a gateway would be significant enough for Randlanders to comment on. Most likely, RJ just died before he could read this XKCD What IF, and the thought just didn't occur to him, for some reason. That or something in the nature of the Gateways equalizes the pressure, or has a pressure barrier, without blocking sound. Certainly female gateways would equalize the pressure, since they create a similarity in the pattern between two points (Rand describes this as "changing the pattern"). The males would have a problem, though, since they just fold the patter and make a hole.

And what about skimming? That place seems to me to be a vacuum, though people breath in it. How does that not create a similar problem? If you open your Skimming doorway too far down in that other reality, then air pressure would be huge.

Just seems to be something you have to suspend your disbelief on. A wizard did it.
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  #6  
Old 10-04-2012, 10:39 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizbang View Post
Not being able to hear through a gateway would be significant enough for Randlanders to comment on. Most likely, RJ just died before he could read this XKCD What IF, and the thought just didn't occur to him, for some reason. That or something in the nature of the Gateways equalizes the pressure, or has a pressure barrier, without blocking sound. Certainly female gateways would equalize the pressure, since they create a similarity in the pattern between two points (Rand describes this as "changing the pattern"). The males would have a problem, though, since they just fold the patter and make a hole.

And what about skimming? That place seems to me to be a vacuum, though people breath in it. How does that not create a similar problem? If you open your Skimming doorway too far down in that other reality, then air pressure would be huge.

Just seems to be something you have to suspend your disbelief on. A wizard did it.
Of course, of course, its all in good fun.
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2012, 10:40 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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I'm fairly sure that in the past, we've had threads here where we devised perpetuum mobile arrangements using gateways. From what I remember, the consensus was that if you added a buttered cat array to it, then the thing just wouldn't rotate. Not sure whether anyone actually put that last one to the test, though.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:28 PM
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Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizbang View Post
Not being able to hear through a gateway would be significant enough for Randlanders to comment on. Most likely, RJ just died before he could read this XKCD What IF, and the thought just didn't occur to him, for some reason. That or something in the nature of the Gateways equalizes the pressure, or has a pressure barrier, without blocking sound. Certainly female gateways would equalize the pressure, since they create a similarity in the pattern between two points (Rand describes this as "changing the pattern"). The males would have a problem, though, since they just fold the patter and make a hole.

And what about skimming? That place seems to me to be a vacuum, though people breath in it. How does that not create a similar problem? If you open your Skimming doorway too far down in that other reality, then air pressure would be huge.

Just seems to be something you have to suspend your disbelief on. A wizard did it.
It has been suggested that the method men and women use to create gateways isn't as different as it first seems. I believe it was Seeker who pointed it out; the method that really tears a hole in the Pattern is TP-travelling, since using the TP damages the Pattern. It's illogical to think that Saidin, which is of the Pattern, does the same thing. On examination, it's obvious that in order to open a gateway, both men and women must, logically, "poke a hole" in the Pattern, and it stands to reason that, in order for that gateway to go where desired, some folding must be involved. It seems, therefore, that it's a difference of point of view: women focus on the folding and similarity, men on the poking (no pun intended). Rather than doing the same thing in two different ways, it seems like it's doing the same thing in the same way from a different point of view, which perhaps says something interesting about the nature of the One Power. Is the method of moving heat, in fact, a similar example?
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  #9  
Old 10-05-2012, 03:10 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Is the method of moving heat, in fact, a similar example?
I sort of doubt that, as there's actual evidence that women can do that in the same way that men do. But when they do, they get burned, unlike men.
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  #10  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:14 AM
Whizbang Whizbang is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It has been suggested that the method men and women use to create gateways isn't as different as it first seems. I believe it was Seeker who pointed it out; the method that really tears a hole in the Pattern is TP-travelling, since using the TP damages the Pattern. It's illogical to think that Saidin, which is of the Pattern, does the same thing. On examination, it's obvious that in order to open a gateway, both men and women must, logically, "poke a hole" in the Pattern, and it stands to reason that, in order for that gateway to go where desired, some folding must be involved. It seems, therefore, that it's a difference of point of view: women focus on the folding and similarity, men on the poking (no pun intended). Rather than doing the same thing in two different ways, it seems like it's doing the same thing in the same way from a different point of view, which perhaps says something interesting about the nature of the One Power. Is the method of moving heat, in fact, a similar example?
Take a piece of cloth and a pin/needle. It is possible to poke the needle through without damaging any of the individual threads. The cloth will just snap back into shape when the needle is removed. This, I believe, is how the Saidin Traveling behaves. It is more like spreading the individual threads of reality apart enough to slip through. Saidar, however, would be more like weaving the threads together (temporarily) to create a single point where the two previously different places in the cloth become a single zero width plane. Then you just walk across this infinitely small plane and undo the weave. The True Power would slice right through the threads and leave permenant damage. All involve folding the pattern/cloth, but each is a different method.

At least, that's how I see it.
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  #11  
Old 10-24-2012, 02:32 PM
Greycon Greycon is offline
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Default Tearing vs. poking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It has been suggested that the method men and women use to create gateways isn't as different as it first seems. I believe it was Seeker who pointed it out; the method that really tears a hole in the Pattern is TP-travelling, since using the TP damages the Pattern. It's illogical to think that Saidin, which is of the Pattern, does the same thing. On examination, it's obvious that in order to open a gateway, both men and women must, logically, "poke a hole" in the Pattern, and it stands to reason that, in order for that gateway to go where desired, some folding must be involved. It seems, therefore, that it's a difference of point of view: women focus on the folding and similarity, men on the poking (no pun intended). Rather than doing the same thing in two different ways, it seems like it's doing the same thing in the same way from a different point of view, which perhaps says something interesting about the nature of the One Power. Is the method of moving heat, in fact, a similar example?

Unfortunately, the tearing vs. not-tearing concept does not work for a number of reasons.
First and most obvious is Balefire. It burns portions out of the pattern. The more OP the more damage. I forget the exact quote but if I remember right Grendale describes a Balescream as the Universe/Pattern screaming and the wave of wrongness that passes over her. Of course this will make me have to re-read the section on TP traveling. If the TP is actually tearing the pattern you would think that there would be something referenced about the pattern doing “something” at being ripped/burned/damaged.
Second, yes, Sadin is of the pattern, but that does not mean that it could not harm the pattern. There are many references to the cyclical nature of the WoT realm. Sadin and Sadar turn the WoT which spins the pattern which makes Sadin and Sadar. The symbolism is everywhere from the Flame of Tar Valon and Dragons Fang to the serpent eating its own tail. It’s all balanced forces. Now here is the crazy part, does Sadin and Sadar need to be destroyed to be recreated? If it is continually being created and not destroyed you would think that the available pool of the OP would now be flooding the world. Maybe the halves of the powers are recycled through each other. Sadin becoming Sadar and vice versa. No evidence in the books of this but it just popped into my head.
Third, I don’t believe that there are any references to the TP being used to drill the Bore. In fact the whole supposed point of drilling the Bore was to reach the TP. Which means that the OP was used to power the device that was causing harm to the pattern. I guess an argument could be made that the device transformed the power.
Ultimately, how it works does not matter, we just know that gateways do account for the differences in pressure. If they did not, we would see peeps getting sucked into the gateways and spit out on the other side. Not the noblest way for the Dragon Reborn to rejoin his people. “Ok, as soon as the Dragon is done picking rocks out of his teeth and someone can heal him, Start Cheering! Ok, here’s the Gateway! Everybody Duck!”
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  #12  
Old 10-25-2012, 04:00 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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If the TP is actually tearing the pattern you would think that there would be something referenced about the pattern doing “something” at being ripped/burned/damaged.
Good point, this. Now if only there were a passage like the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS, Chapter 20, Patterns within Patterns
To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.
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Old 10-25-2012, 09:26 AM
Greycon Greycon is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Good point, this. Now if only there were a passage like the following:
Gonzo,

Yep, I thought that was correct. So the TP does tear the pattern. I kinda like the idea that the pattern is the actual prison of the DO. So why would not exercising his power do damage. Yes I know there are problems with that theory. Such as, why would both sides stop using Balefire in AoL once it was discovered that it harms the pattern. It just seems to feel right.

But the fact remains that the OP can harm the pattern. Balefire is a perfect example.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:06 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Drilling

When Rand has his past lives in the Rhuidean Terangral, it makes reference to this being the last time that men and women would use separate power. This then infers that the TP is not available
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:55 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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That was before the DO was found. At the time, Lanfear was searching for some kind of power that both men and women could use equally well, probably because she expected that she would be best at using it.
What she found was not a unisex power, but a being (the DO) who could supply such a unisex power if one obeyed him.

As an aside: why didn't Lanfear die of TP overdose?
It seems strange to me that she managed to avoid that fate.
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