art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:33 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 65
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is an unknown quantity at this point
Default The Oath Rod and Male Channelers

What do you suppose would happen if a male channeler, prior to the cleansing of saidin, were to swear on the Oath Rod that he would never go mad?

For that matter, what if any channeler swore on the Oath Rod that they would never die?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-17-2012, 09:39 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will. For example, we saw what happened when someone was ordered by someone she was Sworn to obey to lie, which she had Sworn not to do. She started choking and would have died if the order hadn't been retracted.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-18-2012, 12:28 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Cortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon View Post
What do you suppose would happen if a male channeler, prior to the cleansing of saidin, were to swear on the Oath Rod that he would never go mad?

For that matter, what if any channeler swore on the Oath Rod that they would never die?
As mentioned it wouldn't work, but on a similar line, I guess they could have just swore not to channel....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-18-2012, 03:25 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
As mentioned it wouldn't work, but on a similar line, I guess they could have just swore not to channel....
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-18-2012, 12:50 PM
Tsofu's Avatar
Tsofu Tsofu is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 148
Tsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to all
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.
Really? How did I miss THAT important tidbit? Gonzo, could you steer me to the salient passage, please?

Tsofu
__________________
With malice towards none, with charity for all

Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:29 PM
suttree's Avatar
suttree suttree is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 544
suttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Yes, they could have.
However, a somewhat complicating factor is that the Oath Rod almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers at all, so it is unlikely that it would have had any effect.
What leads you to believe that? Possibly different numbered rods for males/females?
__________________
"Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:38 PM
frenchie's Avatar
frenchie frenchie is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 183
frenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud offrenchie has much to be proud of
Default

A Crown of Sword Chapter 40. Except from Encyclopedia WoT.

Sevanna POV - Watching Galina work, Rhiale tells Sevanna that Efalin and the other Wise Ones think Galina admitted killing Desaine. Therava wanted her as gai'shain. Caddar and Maisia appear, dressed as they were six days ago. Caddar gives Sevanna a binder saying he got it yesterday.2 He tells her it is activated by Spirit and that it is only for women who can channel. He implies he has something that will control Rand.3 He mentions a binding chair for those who cannot channel, but he does not know where one is. Caddar brought "traveling boxes," nar'baha. He tells her they need to use them today because Rand is coming with four clans. Rand's bound Aes Sedai taught their Wise Ones how to Travel short distances so they can be here today.4 He tells her the boxes use saidin and a woman must not touch it; they must wait three days before using them again.5 Sevanna thinks Caddar wants gold. She does not think he will betray her, but she takes precautions anyway.6
__________________
<b>Mat: Let's fight.

Galad: Not the face!

Gawyn: Yes, the face.

Last edited by frenchie; 10-18-2012 at 02:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Tsofu's Avatar
Tsofu Tsofu is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 148
Tsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to allTsofu is a name known to all
Default

Thank you, frenchie.

Tsofu
__________________
With malice towards none, with charity for all

Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-18-2012, 02:16 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 65
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

This is all just speculating for the sake of speculation, so please feel free to ignore it or answer with something along the lines of "stop being foolish;" but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will.
Is there evidence (from the books or interviews) that supports that? I'm not challenging you - I agree with you, but then I wondered if it was just a presumption (because I think it is a natural & expected presumption, whether or not it's true). And, if so, I wonder if the AS also just presume that the OR is limited to matters of free will.

Also, @Tsofu & Frenchie, thanks for addressing the 2nd part of this follow-up. I also want to know why the OR almost certainly doesn't work on male channelers. However, why would you trust anything "Caddar" told Sevanna?

Last edited by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon; 10-18-2012 at 02:28 PM. Reason: follow-up & spelling
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-18-2012, 03:49 PM
suttree's Avatar
suttree suttree is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 544
suttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant futuresuttree has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
A Crown of Sword Chapter 40. Except from Encyclopedia WoT.

2 He tells her it is activated by Spirit and that it is only for women who can channel.
Thanks Frenchie, not sure if I trust him here but cool to see non the less. I wonder if the numbers do have soemthing to do with it?
__________________
"Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize, and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete wast of time. That is what I choose to do with my life." - Miki Dora
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-18-2012, 05:39 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,001
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon View Post
...why would you trust anything "Caddar" told Sevanna?
1: He had no obvious reason to lie.

2: that is the only assertion one way or another we have about the Binder working on Saidar wielders only.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon View Post
Is there evidence (from the books or interviews) that supports that?
Yes. The incident I already described for you of conflicting oaths.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-19-2012, 04:29 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
2: that is the only assertion one way or another we have about the Binder working on Saidar wielders only.
Well, we also have the fact that the WT Oath Rod was not used to stop male channelers from touching the OP. If it had worked on them, then that would have removed the need for the whole "gentle every male channeler" business.

This is slightly indirect evidence, but I would say that it is rather strong nonetheless. Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-19-2012, 07:21 AM
Dajoran's Avatar
Dajoran Dajoran is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: an bhaile sliabh
Posts: 272
Dajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant futureDajoran has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.
Well you see, he asked and well... they came up to him with binders filled with women.
__________________
An Mac Tíre. An Dragan. An Cearrbhach

"Saighdiúirí, a ullmhú marcra chun pas a fháil ar aghaidh! Ar aghaidh an Gharda Chroí! Ar aghaidh! Chun an tOnórach an Iolar Dearg! An Iolar Dearg!"

beidh mo chlaíomh onóir na marbh.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-19-2012, 09:46 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
Well you see, he asked and well... they came up to him with binders filled with women.
Yeah, I know:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 31, Assurances
"I think not," Verin replied calmly. "Even if we could find women willing to bear children by gentled men, there is no guarantee the children would be able to channel, or would be girls. I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused."
Though, admittedly, once he'd thought about it, Logain seems to have agreed to go along with the scheme after all.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-19-2012, 12:02 PM
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 65
Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It doesn't work like that. You can only swear concerning matters of free will. For example, we saw what happened when someone was ordered by someone she was Sworn to obey to lie, which she had Sworn not to do. She started choking and would have died if the order hadn't been retracted.
I'm missing the evidence in here, then. I don't see how this situation supports the presumption that you can only swear on matters of free will. It shows that conflicting Oaths could kill you, but does not suggest to me that there are limits to what you can Swear.

Also, regarding "free will," Swearing to "speak no word that is not true" isn't really a matter of free will. Truth is not what you believe to be the case, it's what is the case (i.e., despite a common theme in WoT and real life, truth is not in the eye of the beholder, and it is not the same thing as belief). However, there's a loophole in it, where AS can speak untrue words, as long as the speaker believes them to be true (right?). This is not really a matter of free will, either, because you don't just choose to believe something. If you have to decide whether or not to believe something, then you don't completely believe it (you've already acknowledged the possibility that it's untrue). To me, this is like the ol' Catch 22: if you're able to recognize that you're crazy, then you're not crazy. And, that brings us to the part about male channelers: going mad usually involves believing that you're perfectly fine, in which case, you could theoretically Swear against going mad, without any real consequence, because even when you go mad, you still believe you're not mad.

As for the "why didn't the AS use the OR to bind men against touching the source" question: considering the evidence that we have, I think "because they know little about their ter'angreals and presumed that the OR wouldn't work on a man," or even, "no one thought to try it" are equally as plausible reasons as "they know the OR doesn't work on men." And, the AS have been proven to presume incorrectly at times.

Last edited by Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon; 10-19-2012 at 12:25 PM. Reason: To add hastily written, incomplete additional thoughts
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-19-2012, 12:15 PM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 987
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
This is slightly indirect evidence, but I would say that it is rather strong nonetheless. Unless you can come up with another reason why the Oath Rod was never used for the purpose of dealing with male channelers.
Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-19-2012, 07:38 PM
Rand al'Fain's Avatar
Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,089
Rand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of lightRand al'Fain is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?
And that's IF he doesn't blast you into oblivion on the spot.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-19-2012, 07:58 PM
Cortar Cortar is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Cortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Also, I don't think its unrealistic to assume that the knowledge that the binders could work on men was lost with the knowledge about shortened life span, their original purpose, etc
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-19-2012, 08:23 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Belling the Cat.

Think about that for a moment. You have hundreds, perhaps thousands (given the Age) of psychotic male channelers running around wreaking havoc and breaking the world. Exactly how are you going to hunt down each and every one of them and safely capture him, much less convince the crazed SOB that it's in his best interests to swear the oath?
Well, you could grandfather its usage in by only using the Sane ones.

There's the minor issue of such a thing not likely working on someone who is insane...I mean, if you cant control yourself to stop channeling, how would the Oath Rod stop it? It'd be the same as someone who thinks they're telling the truth.

There's also the possibility that RJ simply never thought about that possibility and its a whoopsy.

The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.