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  #1  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:34 AM
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Default The Warders' Hierarchy

How is it determined? They must have some formal/informal ways of giving commands to themselves. Given that in Salidar (and elsewhere in the series) there were Warders always on guard who rotated out their assignments and did escorts and the like it would stand to reason that someone had to be giving the orders as to who where and when and I doubt AS could be bothered to do so.

I believe Lan was called the king of all warders by another warder, does that mean they determine their own precedence? That would seem to be the more feasible option as opposed to say the precedence of their AS = the warder's own standing.

When in the WT, Hammar (before his death) was in charge of teaching prospective recruits. Other warders may have helped train but it was given to him to be the drill sergeant so to speak. Who were his superiors or did he go as high as they come given that warders exist for a martial purpose and would have very little need to deal with civilian affairs.

Any thoughts?
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:02 PM
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I would suggest that warders probably follow the same hierarchy as their Aes Sedai, but in situations requiring a little more organisation such as defending a military asset, develop informal chains of command based on experience and skill in the relevant areas. Hammar appeared to have more authority within the White Tower, but we're actually short a reference that says he was even a Warder and not simply a skilled instructor, so in non-military situations where Warders will be accompanying their Aes Sedai on various missions the command structure is obviously loose. Lan's "King of the Warders" title is probably just a reference to his skill and legendary status even prior to being bonded by Moiraine - and the fact that Moiraine no doubt got into more deadly situations in which Lan aided or saved her than most sisters and their warders - rather than being strictly a denotation of rank.
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Old 10-21-2012, 04:18 PM
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He was referred to as Hammar Gaidin...he was definitely a Warder.

Quote:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 24 - Scouting and Discoveries
"It would not be fair, Hammar Gaidin," Galad said.
Maybe they did it by age, skill level or perhaps they were an autonomous collective of some sort where they shared such duties equally when their AS didnt need them.


Also, on Hammar:

Quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"I will be in the practice yard. The only time I can stop worrying is when I am working the sword with Hammar." Hammar was a blademaster, and the Warder who taught the sword
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
He was referred to as Hammar Gaidin...he was definitely a Warder.



Maybe they did it by age, skill level or perhaps they were an autonomous collective of some sort where they shared such duties equally when their AS didnt need them.


Also, on Hammar:
Ah. That's what I get for relying on eWOT this time, heh. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:29 AM
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Cute bonus question: what would Rand's position be in this hierarchy?
Bonus question to the bonus question: how does being able to channel add in to the calculations (this applies to the other Asha'man Warders, obviously)?
Extra bonus question: how about a Warder of whom it is known that she is a Hero of the Horn?
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Also, on Hammar:
I always wondered who his AS would be, I regret not asking RJ when at the various signings.

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Cute bonus question: what would Rand's position be in this hierarchy?
None, since he cannot be properly described as a Warder having never been tower trained and his purpose is not to serve his AS. Here, I am distinguishing between bonding and being a warder. Just like the wives of the AM are bonded but not warders to their husbands.


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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Bonus question to the bonus question: how does being able to channel add in to the calculations (this applies to the other Asha'man Warders, obviously)?
Before the cleansing, probably as well as strong things worked out for Elyas. Now, who is to say.

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Extra bonus question: how about a Warder of whom it is known that she is a Hero of the Horn?
Her purpose (now) is to protect Elayne. Even though she is not tower trained, the other warders accept her when they find out that she was bonded. That would harken back to the time of the Trolloc Wars were suitable replacements were taken as needed. I highly doubt she will reveal who she truly is so I don't see her status ever changing based on that.

Now, if Warder hierarchy is determined by who can drink the most, she is probably a shoe in for Warder in Chief.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:07 AM
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I always wondered who his AS would be, I regret not asking RJ when at the various signings.
Zero evidence at all here but I would guess that it was one of the Blue sisters who was killed in the attack. I think we would have heard of it otherwise...something along the lines of "She's still crying because of Hammar's death" mentioned to one of the supergirls in Salidar in passing. Also, it makes sense that a Blue warder would lead the attempt to free her.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:09 PM
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Zero evidence at all here but I would guess that it was one of the Blue sisters who was killed in the attack. I think we would have heard of it otherwise...something along the lines of "She's still crying because of Hammar's death" mentioned to one of the supergirls in Salidar in passing. Also, it makes sense that a Blue warder would lead the attempt to free her.
Yeah, that is probably it. I went back and read NS to see if there was any hint as to her identity because Hammar showed a good deal of loyalty in trying to free her against other warders and their AS(not sure if that was ever mentioned). Uncommon loyalty because of . . . perhaps his AS was close w/ Siuan? I always hated Gawyn for his role in fighting against his mentors and his subsequent trip down cry baby lane.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:52 PM
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Yeah, that is probably it. I went back and read NS to see if there was any hint as to her identity because Hammar showed a good deal of loyalty in trying to free her against other warders and their AS(not sure if that was ever mentioned). Uncommon loyalty because of . . . perhaps his AS was close w/ Siuan? I always hated Gawyn for his role in fighting against his mentors and his subsequent trip down cry baby lane.
That's pretty much what killed Gawyn as a character for me. I've hated him ever since.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:19 AM
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That's pretty much what killed Gawyn as a character for me. I've hated him ever since.
Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:39 AM
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Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.
I don't follow.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:46 AM
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I don't follow.
Elayne has a bit of a tendency of making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. (There's serious discussion whether or not she's going to be caught by the Shadow yet again in AMoL.) That suggests that her judgment is not entirely trustworthy.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:48 AM
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Elayne has a bit of a tendency of making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. (There's serious discussion whether or not she's going to be caught by the Shadow yet again in AMoL.) That suggests that her judgment is not entirely trustworthy.
Gotcha, I was thinking you meant it as a reference to not liking Elayne and thus who she approved of was tainted.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:25 AM
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Elayne preferred him over Galad. Which, in hindsight, was a bit of a clue even earlier on.
So did Egwene...which is just as damning.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:50 AM
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So did Egwene...which is just as damning.
Worse.

Egwene logic = "I know how to make Cuendillar, the seals are made out of Cuendillar, I KNOW ALL ABOUT THE SEALS RAND, YOUR IDEA IS A BAD IDEA!"
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:43 PM
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So did Egwene...which is just as damning.
With the UTmost respect, Davian. Egwene was smitten with Galad waaaay before she turned her attentions to Gawyn. I can dig up the reference but I recall Elayne saying words to Egwene, to the effect that Gawyn was 'besotted' with her but wouldn't express any interest since Galad had already shown his interest.

The genius/aggravation of RJ's writing is that it's entirely possible to understand why each of these young people behaves the way they do and to either empathize with her/him or conversely, loathe each of their POV's.

However, this is getting rather far afield from the thread. I never perceived any hierarchy amongst the warders, except that Lan was first among equals.

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Old 10-23-2012, 03:57 PM
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I've wondered about whether warders have a formal hierarchy, but I have a feeling that they really don't. It seems that they all defer to any Aes Sedai, but amongst themselves they will come to accomodations with each other rather than defering, as long as their accomodations don't conflict with their Aes Sedai's wishes. I can't think of any examples in the series where one warder listened to or obeyed another warder due to some formal or informal ranking system.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:40 PM
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With the UTmost respect, Davian. Egwene was smitten with Galad waaaay before she turned her attentions to Gawyn. I can dig up the reference but I recall Elayne saying words to Egwene, to the effect that Gawyn was 'besotted' with her but wouldn't express any interest since Galad had already shown his interest.

The genius/aggravation of RJ's writing is that it's entirely possible to understand why each of these young people behaves the way they do and to either empathize with her/him or conversely, loathe each of their POV's.

However, this is getting rather far afield from the thread. I never perceived any hierarchy amongst the warders, except that Lan was first among equals.

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Well of course she did...but she ultimately chose Gawyn over Galad...which tells you all you need to know.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:07 AM
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Well of course she did...but she ultimately chose Gawyn over Galad...which tells you all you need to know.
To be fair to her, she considered Lanfear too for a short while. Not sure why she chose not to pursue that. Might've made a big difference, if it had worked out.
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Old 10-24-2012, 04:05 PM
77jester 77jester is offline
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It was either Lord Agelmar or Ingtar that told Nynaeve that Lan was the greatest of the Warders, not the king. Which to me implies an opinion of a borderlander not necessarily an established hierarchy.
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