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  #1  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:26 PM
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So was Lews Therin a construct of Rand's mind or was Lews Therin actually Lews Therin
I always figured construct but I've never been 100% on that
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:44 AM
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Rand was actually Lews Therin. Took him a while to figure out, so he pretended that, rather than admitting he was going insane, that there was a crazy dude in his head.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by connabard View Post
So was Lews Therin a construct of Rand's mind or was Lews Therin actually Lews Therin
Both, which is at least part of why it wasn't clear. Another part of that is of course the fact that RJ did not want it to be clear, so he deliberately wrote it in such a way that various interpretations would all remain valid.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:39 AM
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Follow-up question:
How then does Rand have access to the memories of his life as LTT
Is that caused by the taint or something else?
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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We don't know exactly, but Brandon implied that the taint had something to do with it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
We don't know exactly, but Brandon implied that the taint had something to do with it.
What's the quote? I was just thinking that it makes more sense to suggest that the memories are an effect/side-effect of his being a specific individual reborn according to prophecy and might actually be necessary to help him seal the Bore, while the taint would be responsible for the madness/multiple personality disorder - I even saw someone once compare his madness to early onset Alzheimers!
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:41 AM
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I was just thinking that it makes more sense to suggest that the memories are an effect/side-effect of his being a specific individual reborn according to prophecy and might actually be necessary to help him seal the Bore...
That's not an explanation for how he got the memories. It's just hand-waving.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:08 PM
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That's not an explanation for how he got the memories. It's just hand-waving.
Yeah, he saidared it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
That's not an explanation for how he got the memories. It's just hand-waving.
Well, we know from what Semirhage said* that similar things to what happened to Rand have happened before. With that in mind, it might be taken as "a thing that happens", much like how Perrin and Mat were able to speak the Old Tongue of Manetheren in TEOTW. Certain individuals do seem able to tap into past lives of themselves. Perhaps Moridin's madness took a similar form when he was Ishamael; he did speak of fighting since the dawn of time itself. Also bear in mind that Heroes of the Horn are apparently capable of remembering the full sum of their past lives until they are spun out again, upon which happening they forget them, as happened with Birgitte. Also note that Birgitte is not insane.

The Taint generally causes madness and death. It does not generally convey in and of itself past life memories - for a start, one might ask how "the taint" would have those memories in the first place, let alone by happenstance release them on to Rand specifically, unless you were to argue that certain False Dragons in the past had them too. Perhaps madness of a form is a prerequisite to accessing those memories which remain an innate part of the soul, but the memories themselves could not be bestowed by it.

Definitely the taint had "something to do" with the memories being available to recall, but I do not believe it was in itself causative. Rather, I would argue that the memories are always available to the soul, but blocked off from the mind by some function of the same. The taint erodes that block, releasing them into the mind, as it erodes other functions of the normally sane mind.

ETA: I know parts of this response aren't the argument you were making, but since you didn't provide a counter-argument as such I developed my ideas off the thoughts that occurred to me. I hope this does not cause any offence.

*I am assuming I can trust Semirhage. This may be a mistake.
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2012, 03:58 PM
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It was not only Semirhage who spoke of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 19, Shadow's Waiting
"Don't say that!" Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. "That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly." He took another breath to calm himself before going on. "The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I've heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought ... It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don't know much more than that they had a father."
Now, we know that "Shadow's Waiting" is a translation from the Old Tongue. We also know that language was notoriously multi-meaninged.
So, does Shadar Logoth mean "the Waiting of the Shadow", "the Shadow is Waiting", or both?
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:47 AM
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Definitely the taint had "something to do" with the memories being available to recall, but I do not believe it was in itself causative. Rather, I would argue that the memories are always available to the soul, but blocked off from the mind by some function of the same. The taint erodes that block, releasing them into the mind, as it erodes other functions of the normally sane mind.

But... that's how 99% of people seem to understand it, and it's what most people mean when they take a short-cut and say that the Taint's responsible for the LTT memories, Though the "erosion of the barrier" metaphor is probably inaccurate.

And it doesn't seem to be unique to the True Power. In the WOT-verse such a physical malfunction is the cause of a form of insanity (a form of schizophrenia, more precisely, and so is the ability to channel, incidentally, or more accurately RJ has decided that in Ages without access to the True Source, sparkers develop schizophrenia (in Ages with the OP they don't go insane.. the delusions are all real!). It's the same percentages, the same age ranges for the onset, the same gender-based differences, the same symptoms. And the real-life plant on which Forkroot is based has the same effects of removing or dampering temporarily the symptoms of schizophrenia. A whole aspect of the WOT cosmology is based on that: the pattern and Wheel, the new cosmology introduced by the channelers in WOT and displacing the older Great Serpent/Tree of Life etc. one is solidly inspired by a classic form of schizophrenic delusions, in which the patient imagines the schizophrenic imagines the world (and himself) aree under the control of some giant cosmic machine or force trying to force him on certain paths. For some, the machine is "evil" and they fight its control, with other patients the machine is benevolent and they've been chosen to accomplish a mission/are guided in their actions by the machine and its agents (voices). Nowadays the imagery often relates to giant computers, or aliens, but RJ rather specifically inspired himself mostly from the first recorded case of this form of delusions (the guy is also "patient zero" for schizophrenia itself): an englishman in the 19th century, a patient of the Bedlam asylum, who imagined the world was under the control of invisible cosmic looms that were weaving people's thoughts and guiding their actions. Those looms were operated by a gang of villains, characteristics of whom RJ spread among many of his forsaken (in the gang there's an evil professor, someone who switch gender, a seductress who's very evil but also mysteriously tortured by the rest of the gang and trying to get the patient's sympathy, someone who loves to torture, a man who's extremely jealous of the patient etc.). The patient (James Matthews) also included among his torturers and accomplices of the "gang" his own psychiatrist, a famous doctor (for having been the first to study a case of schizophrenia) whose name RJ used (barely deformed) for two characters... the King of Arad Doman (Alsalam), and another that'd be a AMOL prologue spoiler, but from the sounds of "Alsalam" you should puzzle out what I'm talking about. James Matthews alternated between believing himself invested of a mission from God to put an end to the rule of the arch villain who had thrown the continent into chaos before this disease spread to England: Napoleon, and believing he had been chosen to be the Emperor of the whole world (and during that phase he designed himself an imperial palace, all in white, to be built on the site of the Bedlam asylum. He was hospitalized after an incident at the british parliament where in the middle of the session he accused the British PM and some of his MPs of being under "compulsion" sent by the Air Loom that made them act against their will without knowing.

RJ took inspiration from the history of madness for all his groups of channelers: shamans for the WO/dreamwalkers (and Perrin), the history of the Sea Folk who took to sea to avoid the Breaking is derived from the medieval Ships of Fools, The scheming, isolated and temperamental Aes Sedai who can't stand being contradicted, living together in their White Tower with Warders(!) protecting them but also keeping them from harming themselves are inspired by Bedlam, the Kin/Knitting Circle are inspired by the methods of the Quakers who took patients "abandonned" by the asylums/, brought them to live in groups on farms in the countryside, where they occupied them with gardening for the men, and knitting and sewing groups for the women. The a'dam is inspired by an extremly cruel device used in victorian asylums. It was a metal collar, not with a leash but with a pole. The staff used it to control patients and keep them from harming others. It was the object of a big scandal after a newspaper revealed its existence, and was abandoned following a public campaign against it by women of the good society. That scandal was fairly important, it's after this the asylums fell under much greater public scrutiny and the more medieval methods started being replaced by more modern and humane ones (developed first in France).

Ok.. long disgression. Back to LTT's memories.

We have a better clue how it works with TOM and the scene when Nynaeve heals Naeff. By the description of things as Nynaeve "saw" them with her delving, The Taint (a product of the True Power) blocks some normal mental process/pathways, and bridges others. IMHO, it suggests very strongly that the Taint eroded no barrier in Rand, but rather bridges his conscious mind, the one of his current incarnation and the part of his mind/soul (something in relation with the subconscious, I guess) where the memories from past lives are stored.

It would follow that a similar connection can also be made with the OP (perhaps not by a human weave, but rather a flow of spirit woven by the Wheel) and its how the Heroes have access to their past lives while dead. This "threads" are what's fading/dissolving in Birgitte's case, I bet. It would also suggests that Mat's/Egwene's "Old Tongue" episodes come from something very strong in their subconscious that resurfaces. In Egwene's case, it's more like an "almost", and I've little doubt this "almost but not quite access" to her subconscious is connected to her TAR abilities and her Dreaming. We'll see as she gets better at interpreting her dreams what her increased skills to access her subconscious bring forth. In Mat's case, I suspect it has nothing to do with Shadar Logoth (or its taint), I rather think the "leak" of one episode of a past life (or ancestral memories, it's not clear), given the timing of it all, was rather caused by whatever Siuan did to him with a MASSIVE amount of spirit, air and water when she healed Mat with Vora's wand. It's like they overloaded him with the OP, and it temporarily created a connection. The leaked memory from Manetheren was extremely sharp and precise as he woke up, then this faded and never returned... which is reminescent of what happened to Birgitte. And yup, it could well suggest Mat is a Hero of the Horn.

I also noticed as I re read TDR that Mat seems quite confused about having lost memories. The memories he believes he has lost come to him, they are just more difficult to retrieve. It's not amnesia, it's more like everything is a little hazy and he needs to concentrate to retrieve these memories. When he does, they come. The rest is Mat's paranoia (and typical RJ humour... what Mat believes he's lost, he's never lived... he thinks he's got all these important moments of his life he's lost, but in truth there's absolutely no sign of amnesia later on - never Mat says "nope... you tell me I did that two years ago, yet I've no idea what you refer to". Mat didn't have any great moments to remember - he's imagining them. His life has always been just as superficial, empty and somewhat boring as he remembers it!!! The other hilarious bits is that when he meant his lost memories when he asked the Finns, but there were no "holes" to fill in his memories - the Finns rather understood "holes" as what Mat missed... military training, knowledge of fighting the Shadow in Trolloc Wars contexts - for TG, a slew of memories to understand the Paendrag empire (not a lot, but the best the Eelfinn had available and that could give him a certain feel for where Tuon in particular, and the Seanchan a bit more generally come from culturally), some diplomatic/cultural training, even some courting notions etc. They basically polished Mat up and gave him an education! I noticed with just a bit of concentration, Mat remembers everything but a few of his worst moments of "madness"/delirium from EOTW-TGH (and even then.. he remembers quite of bit of those events in truth.. how he took the dagger, Mordeth, the Whitebridge stuff, Skane, Moiraine's healing, the Ways...there's just a lot less to remember than Mat believes). He thinks his journey back from Falme is spotty, but he remembers quite well everything that occured when he was conscious, and his "holes" are just his phases of delirium/unconsciousness. He's imagined the whole thing, typical Mat.

Last edited by Dom; 12-13-2012 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:00 AM
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Mat did have holes in his memory: those started appearing around the time he picked up the dagger in Shadar Logoth, and stopped when he was cured in Tar Valon. There are large stretches of time in between of which he should have memories but doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 42, Remembrance of Dreams
Mat looked as if he had never been sick a day. His first, hesitant smile included everyone, though it slipped into an openmouthed stare at the sight of Loial, as if he were seeing the Ogier for the first time. With a shrug and a shake, he turned his attention back to his friends. "I ... ah ... that is..." He took a deep breath. "It ... ah ... it seems I've been acting ... ah ... sort of oddly. I don't remember much of it, really." He gave Moiraine an uneasy look. She smiled back confidently, and he went on. "Everything is hazy after Whitebridge. Thom, and the ..." He shivered and hurried on. "The further from Whitebridge, the hazier it gets. I don't really remember arriving in Caemlyn at all." He eyed Loial askance. "Not really. Moiraine Sedai says I ... upstairs, I ... ah ..." He grinned, and suddenly he truly was the old Mat. "You can't hold a man to blame for what he does when he's crazy, can you?"
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:49 AM
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There are also times when he is able to recall what was in those holes, which is, I think, what Dom was getting at.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:45 AM
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What Terez said.

Memories from that period come back to him with effort, or they're triggered by needing them back. Mat will suddenly mention Elayne he forgot about, and it's all hazy at first and gradually it all comes back to him.

We might wonder how much was "lost" and how much Mat has blocked out too. He was extremely embarrassed in EOTW.

For the rest it was all extremely hazy when he woke up after healing in Tar Valon, but from what he does remember of the last months, or which came back to him with concentration or triggered by a mere mention of a name etc., it's not so bad.

Then it's when the humor aspect kicked in, as Mat being Mat he of course "embellished" his own problem over time (and how much of that is trying inconsciously to match the "more interesting problems" happening to Perrin and Rand and the girls because he was the last who had not much of interest happening except that "memory problem of his" which he milked for all it was worth.. we'll never know). Soon enough it was no longer vagueness about his SL to TV time, he started inventing other holes. By the time of Rhuidean to hear Mat he's lost whole stretches of his past. All evidence is that this is pure Mat Cauthon imagined holes. To drive it home, RJ often coupled his complaints about "my poor lost chilhood memories" with old times reminiscences in the next paragraph or scene.... Egwene always does this, and Nynaeve is like that, and Bode is like this, and his dad is such and such and Mom always told him that, and he used to do this with Mat and Rand etc. Mat's pre-EOTW past is just fine.... just not as interesting as Mat would like, poor him, all the more interesting bits are "lost", of course...

As he matures, Mat sort of start admitting to himself he was really not so happy with his pre-EOTW life, that he was drifting while his friends had plans.

Last edited by Dom; 12-13-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:20 PM
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Well, we know from what Semirhage said* that similar things to what happened to Rand have happened before.
Pshaw! Next you will claim that handsome Cadsuane woman said as much. Why, you might as well say the light does not deny those creatures.
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