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  #1  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Which Age are we in?

Blessing of the Light upon all here.

I had always thought about that the book took place about 15-20 thousand years in the future. This would give us (humans) time to learn to channel, spread channeling globaly to the point that it was common occurance and society was centered around it by the AS, as well as the standing flows which let anyone use it. Additionally, enough time had to past so that events in our recent history sucha s John Glenn, going to the moon, as well as events that have not happened yet such as America and Moscow (Mosk and Merk) going to war with nukes, had faded into very dimmest of legends, as well as forgetting the very existance of the DO and having only the vaguest concept of war ie "Remember when we took the tame game called Swords and lerned to kill with it as they said men once had). We also have to learn to construct the Nym (Were they a 2nd Age creation, or older) and encounter the Ogier.

I have seen arguments here that say each age is roughly equal in length, so that suggests between three and four thousand years per Age. Using that assumption, the onset of TG is aproximately 12-15,ooo years. Does this sound right?
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:14 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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I have seen arguments here that say each age is roughly equal in length, so that suggests between three and four thousand years per Age. Using that assumption, the onset of TG is aproximately 12-15,ooo years. Does this sound right?
IIRC, there is an interview/signing quote wherein RJ said there was no fixed length for the Ages of the Wheel. The 'current' Age lasted roughly 3,000 yeas, but the AOL had a more peaceful history where records weren't destroyed every thousand years or so; that Age probably lasted longer because it took longer for things to pass from History to Legend.

The ages are, IMHO, best represented by labels rather than numbers. The 'current' Age is simply 'The Present' or "the Age of History."

The Age immediately prior is, as referred to in canon, "the Age Of Legends."

The Age before the AOL, is "the Age Of Myths"

The Ages backwards or forwards three ages, are "the Mists Of Time"

Naming the two Ages ahead on the Wheel is more problematic, but one would be "The Near Future" (or foreseeable future) and the other "The Far Future"

Our current R/L age is probably the "Mists of Time" since only fragmentary references that fall short of Myths are all that remain.
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:31 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Another question

My other post brought this to mind. Where did the Ogier come from?There are two possibilities, as I see it.

1. They, like the SP, were from humans that were genetically engeneered. However, as they live hundreds of years, but there are no references in their knowledge, this seems extremely unlikely, and just throwing it out there.
2. The came from somewhere else.. strongly supported by the references to leaving via the Book of Translation. However, this leads to another question.
A. When did they get here? I mean they were a part of the estblished cycle of events in the AOL, in both or their roles, as singers/growers; and protector/soldiers.

"The soldiers fascinated him, bothe men and Ogiers, the way a colorful poisonous snake would. They killed".
"A woman was tugging at the man''s arm. 'Come away Toma. Come away and hold your foolish tongue, do you want the Ogier to come for you?'"
The Shadow Rising, The Dedidcated, pages 302 & 304, 1st ed. H/cover.


This means that they had evidently been here for a very long time. It seems that an event such as encountering another sentient/extraterrestrial species would have been a story/legend bigger than "Lenn". "Mosk & Merk", and Thom would have mentioned it when he was bragging about having ALL Stories.

Hmmm. This just gave me.. not so much of a question as an almost theory.

How did the Ogier get here and how will they leave? We know the Book of Translation will be used, but how. I think the Ogier came here by Portal Stone, and the Bot, is used to translate the symbols. I mean, even though Liol has traveld by PS, via Rand and Lanfear, He probably has had no access to the BoT so that is why he has not been knowledgable of them.. and he has never been asked. It has always been presented that no one really knew where the PS came from or who made them.

Possibilities?
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2012, 01:04 PM
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My other post brought this to mind. Where did the Ogier come from?
The Shire?

(Tolkien got the size wrong because he didn't have a good frame of reference. )
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  #5  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default Book of Translation = Terangral

We know that the Book of Translation will be used to take the ogier away so that they can come again as Loil tells Mom, and Elder Hamon. I am pretty sure that ogier cannot channel.. if they could, it would have most likely been mentioned.

The Portal Stones (PS) work by the OP. What if the Book of Translation is an Terangral that uses a standing flow, since ogier cannot channel, to allow them to use the Stones. After all, the PS not only connect to other stones in Randland, but to other worlds?

possibilities?
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  #6  
Old 12-19-2012, 10:53 PM
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The Shire?

(Tolkien got the size wrong because he didn't have a good frame of reference. )
The Hobbits have much better laws regarding marriage
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2012, 03:22 AM
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The Portal Stones (PS) work by the OP. What if the Book of Translation is an Terangral that uses a standing flow, since ogier cannot channel, to allow them to use the Stones. After all, the PS not only connect to other stones in Randland, but to other worlds?

possibilities?
I think something happened to scatter a part of the Ogier world into stedding in the human world.

My speculation tend to place the event as part of the end of the Age before the "AOL".

Did the Ogier translated themselves or where they "translated" and given a device/knowledge by which to revert this eventually? We'll see. I think we will only get clues, little more.

My speculation tend to fall on the Eelfinn and Aelfinn. I think they're both the ones who translated the Ogier and previously had made the Portal Stones. They're the ones "who know the numbers of chaos" IMO. They can read the Pattern, they might have brought the Ogier for a purpose, and the Aelfinn told them to seek the Eelfinn to learn how to go back when time came. The Eelfinn gave them the Book of Translation, or rather sold it to them for a price. Today's Ogier may no longer associate the Finns with the creatures who long ago gave them the Book of Translation.

I sort of agree with Weird Harold about the Ages. Our Age, which he calls the "Mists of Time", seems to have ended with a nuclear war between the West and the eastern block.

I think the age that followed was a fairly magical and primitive Age, an age of Shamans (Wolfbrothers and "dreamwalkers"), of "magical" otherworldly creatures like Fairies (the Finns) and Ogier and others (perhaps the Giants in shara, if they exist), the Age of the Horn of Valere (which yes, I also believe was made by the Eelfinn) etc.

I suspect our "snake" friends and "readers of the Pattern" the Aelfinn to be at the origin of the Great Serpent cosmology (symbol of eternity and cyclical time, displaced by the symbolism introduced by channelers, the "weavers" who rather saw it all in terms of Wheel, fabric etc.) which they propagated among primitive humans. We know what they do is actually high tech stuff, but in that Age they probably appeared like Gods or at least something like the Fairies, creatures from a mysterious underwold/other dimension with "magical power", who left standing stone with mysterious symbols on them.

Among the evidence for such a scenario is the fact some of the symbols on the PS (the three wavy lines) are the same found on the Red Doorway to the Aelfinn. Then, Brandon also confirmed they're the ones who came to the humans - they were not found by AS, and we've seen another similar Doorway leading to another world in Ghenjei. Jordan also leaked the fact they have access to the other worlds when he explained how if someone asked to be King of the World without specifying which, they could leave the person in an empty world where he'd be de facto King.

If they made the Doorways, this means, of course, that they can make ter'angreal. They could also tell how strong Moiraine's angreal was etc.
And yet, they don't seem able to channel.

My theory is that they can actually use the One Power, but in a way that's very different from channelers. They can see the threads of energy which form the fabric of the universe. I think their "magic" works by creating patterns/symbols using matter and colours. Portals can be made using specific matter to draw specific symbol. It's extremely alike a Gateway, but completely different. Channelers can do this by forming weaves out of the five energies (the flows) of which the world is made. I think the Eelfinn can see how matter/colour/sound interact with each flow. They can see Spirit can go through this matter, but not through that other matter. If you create complex matrices in an object which matter a specific flow can't pass through, then a flow of Spirit going into it will go through the object, forming a complex pattern, much like a channeler's weave, and that pattern of spirit will produce a specific effect, just like a weave. This, I think is the basic of how ter'angreal work, and it would have been originally Eelfinn technology, their ways to make use of the OP.

In the next Age, humans discovered channeling. The creatures of the Finns realms came to them, offering their bargains. They taught the channelers to make ter'angreal (weave emulators, so to speak), angreal and san'angreal (One Power multipliers). Channelers learned to produce the same, learned how to "transmute" elements from the human world in otherworldly matters (perhaps found naturally only in their Finns realms?), invented matrices of their own (the most sophisticated ter'angreal probably combine sets of weave-like patterns of great complexity, producing something quite beyond the capabilities of a channeler to weave).

Over time, probably after channelers gave humanity much grief and strife, the Aes Sedai Guild emerged, and the society obsessed with perfection began.

I think most ter'angreal/angreal/san'angreal in the series were made by AOL Aes Sedai, but that for a few they sought help from the Eelfinn. I theorize the two in Rhuidean may be their work: the Glass Columns and the WO rings. The Rings emulate the powers of the Aelfinn in a way, it's like it gives you all the answers, but without the help of the Aelfinn to sort them out, without asking specific questions, a human brain can't cope. The GC seemed to rely on reading the past by following bloodlines, perhaps another thing the Aelfinn can do. It has specific rules, like excluding non Aiel.

Leather isn't a material lasting well over centuries or millenia, and since the days of Hawkwing, people barely ever go through Ghenjei. Where do all those leather clothes seemingly come from? Why do Aiel candidates who fail in the Glass Columns vanish? Couladin's brother ripped his own eyes.

I think the Rhuidean AS made a bargain with the Eelfinn. The Eelfinn provide the candidate WO and Chief with knowledge of their past, with a test of their capacity for their duties, and with their lives and for the men a mark.. for those who pass the test, and with death for those who don't. The ones who fail are the price paid to the Eelfinn for their boons to the others, and their big source of leather. They don't "vanish", the Eelfinn come out of the doorway and get the failures while they're still in the transe, and kill them (they would prefer the failed WO apprentices who can channel, draining them fast and killing them...)

The price for the ter'angreal itself could have been paid by the lives of the last Jenn or AS after the Rhuidean meeting.

It's all theory of course, and unless the encyclopedia gives clues I'm guessing we won't much more info on this (I think RJ intended to keep most of that mysterious), though if the theory holds true to an extent, perhaps Rand will give us some background on the Eelfinn/Aelfinn as he discusses them with Moiraine, enough for us to puzzle a few things out.

One thing I like about it is that it would give us a scene where Elayne learns if she wants to learn more about inventing ter'angreal, she must seek the Eelfinn the way the first AS have done. Birgitte's reaction would be hilarious.

RJ's Ghenjei scenes were full of hooks, anyway. He's got Mat wonder why they don't use the OP on them when they obviously can work with it in some way (and obviously can see or sense it... can assess the power of Moiraine's angreal, her strength etc. and apparently have more devices like the one they gave Mat, or at least a way to prevent Lanfear and Moraine from channeling at them. Rand did channel in there, but he made a sword of Fire, he didn't touch them with a weave), Rj's used the same descriptions of the movements of angry Aelfinn he's used for Myrddraal, and got the Eelfinn appear and disappear through shadows... like the Myddraal again.

They have apparently vast stores of power objects. Some believe they got them during bargains, but their price seems to rather be a blood one, as if a body part lets them feed the most strongly on emotions. Of course if they're makers of ter'angreal, san'angreal and angreal, it also makes sense they have vast stores of them to sell to those willing to pay their price for one.

I hope we're not 100% done with them, that more background info is coming in AMOL.

Last edited by Dom; 12-20-2012 at 03:34 AM.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2012, 09:52 AM
maacaroni maacaroni is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
The Shire?

(Tolkien got the size wrong because he didn't have a good frame of reference. )
How strange, I just drove past here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moseley_Bog
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2012, 11:41 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Brilliant

Dom,

Damn.. Your theory is some pretty heavy $#!^. and it makes a lot of sense in how everything ties together. If this were so, since the ability to channel is tied to humans physiologially, it would make sense that beings with an entire different physiology would/could use the OP but just in a different manner.

I also think much of your idea that many of the angrals may have been "purchased" from the Finns. and seeing Birgitte's reaction would be pretty good. She might win the argument, but Elayne does like to keep sticking her nose into hornets' nests.
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