art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7501

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:Tex Knoll , josepcristano24, Awildali, KrystalReign, hafezy20, MGLMRaBBaNy, vinzie, aron123, plefasrol89, jsmseow2,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > A Memory of Light
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 06-28-2013, 12:44 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,086
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tollingtoy View Post
And I don't want to turn this into one of "those" threads, but I felt almost a little offended hearing Brandon talk about Androl and how he wanted "his" character in the books. It's not his book.

I agree, cut out all the Androl parts and make Logain have them the way it was supposed to be and maybe there is room to actually explain what the hell Demandred is doing
It seems to me that by skipping on all background for Demandred, and transferring Logain's acts to Androl totally spoiled what would have been a cool parallel. Logain also hates playing second fiddle, and in aMoL gets uncaring and cold because of his hatred for Taim (which, while much more justified, is a definite parallel to Demandred-Rand). It would have been very cool to see a situation where Demandred actual felt for his people, and Logain slowly got to that point too.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-28-2013, 02:09 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miss'ippi
Posts: 19,412
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez Send a message via MSN to Terez Send a message via Yahoo to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tollingtoy View Post
And I don't want to turn this into one of "those" threads, but I felt almost a little offended hearing Brandon talk about Androl and how he wanted "his" character in the books. It's not his book.
In a sense, it is. But yes, Brandon has given conflicting answers on this, which I imagine he feels aren't mutually exclusive.
__________________
"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny..."—George Wallace

Wheel of Time Reference Library @Terez27

Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-28-2013, 04:02 PM
Ieyasu's Avatar
Ieyasu Ieyasu is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 595
Ieyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to behold
Default

Read it. Cant say I like or dislike it as a wot book. It just doesnt feel much like Wheel of Time to me. It bothered me that the Sharans werent described with their normal musical tonal accent to their voices.

I always had completely different idea's about what a Jumara would pupate into. It was much more dragon-like in my mind rather than the big ass tentacle bug it turned out to be. I also liked the anime jump/flight thing Demandred does with the power!

The fact that there was an evolved Nym for no real reason was confusing and strange. I did enjoy seeing into Demandred's thoughts, however. And I enjoyed how he smashes all emotion into a point of darkness, a black-hole, rather than the typical flame that Rand uses. I can see his quest and work he did, and actually would like a book, or possibly a trilogy to tell the whole story. I like that he definitely feels more fleshed out finally, and that fleshing out wasnt along the stereo typical lines of his history. He had actual growth and depth. It is hard to argue that many of the evil characters ever truly grew or changed, I liked seeing Demandred's changes.

I am very curious about this 'city of dreams' and what exactly riding a "caprisha" is or means. Did someone make a TAR gate for him? Is it some kind of item? Did they possess this ability before Demandred freed the male channelers? Was this something Sharan's could always do?

I have recently been rereading a scene where Rand is traveling to the stone from an inn, there is a sharan man who is trying to sell silk worms (known to the reader as a sharan because of his tonal cadence and accent), to which Rand makes some comment about how everyone knows silk grows on trees and the seanchan seeker says nope its worm then fades into the street... makes me wonder if this guy was sent to scout by Demamdred or something?

Basically, this did not feel very much like a WOT story, despite having WOT characters and creatures. I did enjoy it enough to want to continue reading more of Demandred's years in Shara. I liked it...but this book will never sit on my Wheel of Time book shelf with the rest of Wheel of Time books.
__________________
--It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-06-2013, 06:22 PM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 883
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom View Post
I'm still unsure how the Sharan prophecies could be valid and really be about Demandred yet in the end the Wyld slayed no Dragon. Without the actual devious wording of those prophecies to work out how this fooled the very intelligent Demandred into embracing a virtually religious quest(which is pretty important since it's like the foundation of his whole arc and the key to motives of his actions/decisions in the series), it seems like weak storytelling to me.
Balance the information you have. He states that his prophesied quest is to kill the Dragon. We can read between the self-aggrandizing lines of:

"He is false, I am true."

that Sharan prophesy actually states that he will kill a false Dragon, as he clearly believes he is the TRUE Dragon. He's not out on the battlefield hunting himself, so somewhere along the lines, his self-pride deluded him into believe that not only should he have been the True Dragon, but he IS the True Dragon. Legend in his own mind.

However, we the omniscient readers know that Rand IS the true Dragon. Therefore when De-Bao-dred runs off on his suicidal battlefield rampage/quest to kill Rand, he was very successful in killing the false Dragon.

Himself.
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:00 PM
Ieyasu's Avatar
Ieyasu Ieyasu is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 595
Ieyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Balance the information you have. He states that his prophesied quest is to kill the Dragon. We can read between the self-aggrandizing lines of:

"He is false, I am true."

that Sharan prophesy actually states that he will kill a false Dragon, as he clearly believes he is the TRUE Dragon. He's not out on the battlefield hunting himself, so somewhere along the lines, his self-pride deluded him into believe that not only should he have been the True Dragon, but he IS the True Dragon. Legend in his own mind.

However, we the omniscient readers know that Rand IS the true Dragon. Therefore when De-Bao-dred runs off on his suicidal battlefield rampage/quest to kill Rand, he was very successful in killing the false Dragon.

Himself.
Wrong.

The little we know of the Sharan prophecies say absolutely nothing about any false dragon. They say nothing about Demandred being a real or false dragon. They say he will be a Dragonslayer. That he will end the Dragon's "Dream" and remake the world.

I think this line of prophecies are akin to the Borderlander prophecy. It was a redundant prophecy to ensure that the one and only Dragon Reborn was fit to remake the world. I think had Rand not had his mountain moment, then Demandred would actually have been a 'good guy'... killing Dark Rand on the field before he could fuck up the world with the Darkone... then the Seanchan would have come thru and defeated Demandred and the rest of the shadow... resulting in a tie that would lead the world limping on until the next "Last Battle" or Demandred might have gone on and done what Rand himself did... either way, the only mention of Dragon's we saw in the Sharan prophecies was the Dragon that Demandred was supposed to slay... Rand remained good, this fork wasnt required... so it fizzled with some strong drugs and bad armor...
__________________
--It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Last edited by Ieyasu; 07-07-2013 at 02:02 PM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:41 PM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 883
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Wrong.

The little we know of the Sharan prophecies say absolutely nothing about any false dragon. They say nothing about Demandred being a real or false dragon. They say he will be a Dragonslayer. That he will end the Dragon's "Dream" and remake the world.
Basing my position from the books, and couldn't find much in the way of specifics on that. As I understand it, Unfettered is questionable canon, so I didn't count not having read the books against it. For the sake of argument, I can call it canon.

As Sharan prophecy apparently makes no distinction between false and true dragon, it makes sense that Demandred had no problem with calling himself one.

I could argue that being a "dragon" slayer is wildly open to interpretation as there are four, not one, but I'm still sticking with what I already said.

Demandred called himself a Dragon and indulged in a suicidal fantasty that got himself killed. He is *A* Dragonslayer, and in doing so, he ended his own dream of being LTT. You'll note that he's already remade the world without realizing it in several ways:

1. He brought a previously known but unrecognized nation of people who are not bound by the Dragon's Peace into direct contact with the rest of the world. That's huge.

2. He killed Gawyn. Naw, i just included that so I could laugh.

3. He's directly responsible for the deaths of both the Amyrlin and the M'Hael, which leaves two of the most influential powers, White and Black Tower in a state of questionable repair if/until Cadsuane and Logain remake them in some unknown image. It's not going to be Egwene's world, and Logain's motivations are unknown.

4. On a more abstract level, he may have taught Taim the 13x13 method, which if Rand had not been able to recognize an element of it in "Utopia-Elayne's" eyes, might have caused him to pursue his own Dream of a world without the Dark One.

That's just the most obvious Last Battle stuff - there's a lot more that probably stems directly from his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage.

He's remade the world, just won't be alive to see it and reap the rewards.
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:03 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,997
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
... either way, the only mention of Dragon's we saw in the Sharan prophecies was the Dragon that Demandred was supposed to slay...
Well, there was also the bit which we saw earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC, Chapter 17, The Wheel of a Life
"There is never fighting in Shara, Rand al’Thor. It is said the Trolloc Wars infested them" – Trollocs had entered the Aiel Waste too; since then the Trolloc name for the Aiel Waste was the Dying Ground – "but if there has been one battle since, no word of it has come to the tradeholds. Not much word of anything outside the holdwalls does come inside. They say their land has always been one, not many as here, always at peace. When you came from Rhuidean as the Car’a’carn, word of you spread, and of your title among the wetlanders here. The Dragon Reborn. Word traveled to the tradeholds along the Great Rift and the Cliffs of Dawn." Rhuarc’s eyes were calm and steady; this did not trouble him. "Now word comes back across the Three-fold Land. There is fighting in Shara, and Sharamen in the tradeholds ask when the Dragon Reborn will Break the World."
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:08 AM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 296
Tollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of lightTollingtoy is a glorious beacon of light
Default

I always assumed that Moridin altered the Sharan prophecy in the same way he altered the Seanchan ones.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-09-2013, 12:19 AM
Ieyasu's Avatar
Ieyasu Ieyasu is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 595
Ieyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
As Sharan prophecy apparently makes no distinction between false and true dragon, it makes sense that Demandred had no problem with calling himself one.
Source required. When, exactly, do you think Demandred (or anyone else) ever called him a Dragon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Demandred called himself a Dragon...
Please provide a quote from Demandred (or any Sharan...hell anyone at all) to back this claim up. It can be from any book, including Unfettered. I would be very interested in seeing where you think he (or anyone else of any nationality) ever referred to himself as a Dragon... real or false.

You will not find it because it does not exist. No Sharan ever referred to him as a Dragon, only Dragonslayer, which is what Wy-eld translates into from the Sharan language. He did, however, refer to himself the true "Savior of this world", as did both Shendla and Mentil... perhaps this is your confusion with thinking Demandred claimed to be a Dragon?
__________________
--It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Last edited by Ieyasu; 07-09-2013 at 12:24 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:34 AM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 883
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Source required. When, exactly, do you think Demandred (or anyone else) ever called him a Dragon?
Context, context, context.

Demandred spent his entire introductory piece less-than-subtly implying that he is the true Dragon Reborn. Page 406.

"the one who calls himself Dragon Reborn" - We know Rand IS the Dragon Reborn, not just calling himself that. Apparently Demandred does not.

"I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, I am true." ~ Pretty straightforward, if ignorant on Demandred's part, but then as Demandred is apparently meeting a new-age Aes Sedai for the first time, perhaps he can be forgiven for his ignorance.

So yeah - that's Demandred outright calling LTT a false dragon and stating that he is the true dragon reborn.

Apparently he believes that killing false dragons means he fulfills prophecy. And in a way it does, as he slayed himself pretty darn well.

He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 07-09-2013, 08:09 PM
Ieyasu's Avatar
Ieyasu Ieyasu is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 595
Ieyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Context, context, context.

Demandred spent his entire introductory piece less-than-subtly implying that he is the true Dragon Reborn. Page 406.
Unfettered would have been in the book prior to page 406 fyi... prior to his arrival at the Last Battle.

He never implied at all that he was anything more than a dragonslayer. He implied he was the "True Savior of this World" as the Sharan prophecies said he would be, after he slayed the Dragon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
"I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, I am true." ~ Pretty straightforward, if ignorant on Demandred's part, but then as Demandred is apparently meeting a new-age Aes Sedai for the first time, perhaps he can be forgiven for his ignorance.
Again, showing that the Sharan prophecies show the Dragonslayer as the "True Savior of this World" Demandred is true... Rand is not the true savior... again, I view this as more redundancy on the Pattern's part, to ensure that Rand is in the right frame of mind to do what he must do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
So yeah - that's Demandred outright calling LTT a false dragon and stating that he is the true dragon reborn.
Yeah so.... this is Demandred repeating the Sharan view that he, as the DRAGONSLAYER is the TRUE SAVIOR

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Apparently he believes that killing false dragons means he fulfills prophecy. And in a way it does, as he slayed himself pretty darn well.

He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.
Very wrong. He referred to himself as Wyld after he defeated the Jumara, in Shara, well before his arrival at the Last Battle on page 378 or his rant to Leane on page 406 you tried to partially quote. He refused to allow his Sharan friend to call him Wyld before he did his 3 day trip down the River of Souls... but he immediately announced it to Shendla and Mentil once he came back victorious.

Apparently he believes that freeing the Sharan male channelers, according to prophecy. Starting a revolution and taking control of the country (which Graendal unwittingly made easier for him by kidnapping the current reigning monarchs for her 10 minute convo with Sammael), again, according to prophecy. Getting the handle first, then defeating a full grown jumara to get the cup to complete his sa'angreal, yet again according to prophecy. Hard work for 2 full years, in fulfilling the Sharan prophecies, that was how he gained their loyalty towards him, even though he was clearly evil and siding with the Shadow... as does Shendla and Mentil, who also agree that he fulfilled them as well, and who are both leaders of various factions within Shara, and who accept that even with siding with the Shadow, he was still going to SAVE them, according to their prophecies.

The only parts of the Sharan Prophecies he failed to fulfill were to "end the Dragon's Dream, and remake the world, saving the Sharan people"

Can you quote that again IN FULL so you can get that proper context you were chanting about? I saw no references to Dragons... only references to who would actually save the world: Rand Al'Thor, Dragon Reborn or Bao the Wyld, Dragonslayer, and True Savior of this World. Demandred knew Lews Therin, the DRAGON He refers to Rand as both Lews Therin, Dragon, and Dragon Reborn. He never once refers to himself as anything more than Wyld which as we know from unfettered, means DRAGONSLAYER

nevermind, I will quote it for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demandred, AMOL page 406
Bao still had her chin cupped in his hand. "You are a beautiful thing," he said. "Unfortunately, beauty is meaningless. You are to deliver a message for me, Aes Sedai, to Lews Therin. The one who calls himself the Dragon Reborn. Tell him I have come to slay him, and in so doing, I will claim this world. I will take what originally should have been mine. Tell him that. Tell him you have seen me, and describe me to him. He will know me.
"Just as the people here awaited him with prophecy, just as they showered him with glory, the people of my land awaited me. I have fulfilled their prophecies. He is false, and I am true. Tell him I will finally have satisfaction. He is to come to me, so that we may face one another. If he does not, I will slaughter and destroy, I will seize his people. I will enslave his children, I will take his women for my own. One by one, I will break, destroy, or dominate everything he has loved. The only way for him to avoid this is for him to come and face me.
"Tell him this, little Aes Sedai. Tell him that an old friend awaits, I am Bao, the Wyld. He Who Is Owned Only by the Land. The dragonslayer. He knew me once by a name I have scored, the name Barid Bel."
__________________
--It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Last edited by Ieyasu; 07-09-2013 at 08:10 PM. Reason: fixed a broken tag
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:03 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,997
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I had overlooked those claims of Demandred's when I read that passage. Quite interesting, especially the "He Who Is Owned Only by the Land" combined with the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 34, The Last Village
"The Queen is wed to the land," Thom said as brightly colored balls danced in a circle, "but the Dragon ... the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon."
So Rand owned Demandred?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-10-2013, 05:59 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Miss'ippi
Posts: 19,412
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez Send a message via MSN to Terez Send a message via Yahoo to Terez
Default

D'amandred
__________________
"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny..."—George Wallace

Wheel of Time Reference Library @Terez27

Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-10-2013, 11:57 AM
eht slat meit eht slat meit is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 883
eht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant futureeht slat meit has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Unfettered would have been in the book prior to page 406 fyi... prior to his arrival at the Last Battle.
Would have been, but was cut. As I said, questionable canon and I believe is acknowledged as such by BS himself.

Quote:
He never implied at all that he was anything more than a dragonslayer. He implied he was the "True Savior of this World" as the Sharan prophecies said he would be, after he slayed the Dragon.
You don't have a source showing the Sharan prophecies said any such thing. You're drawing what he "implied" from what you think the text of page 470 meant. Competing theory about what he was implying? Okay, cool.

Quote:
Again, showing that the Sharan prophecies show the Dragonslayer as the "True Savior of this World" Demandred is true...
Implying, not showing. If you have a source for the exact text of the Sharan prophecies, share. This is theory material, not gospel.

Quote:
Rand is not the true savior...
Which could as easily be referencing the Karaethon Cycle. I'm not assuming Demandred to be ignorant of that set of prophecies, and those prophecies do state

I don't know about you, but that seems contradictory to me - Rand can't be the Dragon Reborn AND not bring the world's salvation unless Demandred is completely ignorant and has discounted the entire Karaethon Cycle.

Quote:
again, I view this as more redundancy on the Pattern's part,
It's not redundancy if the two sets of prophecy conflict. However, we don't have any textual evidence that allows us to reconcile one against the other. I am speculating based on the belief that both sets of prophecy are valid, and that Demandred's failure is similar to Elaida's in that he interpreted it according to his desires rather than what would actually happen.

Quote:
Very wrong. He referred to himself as Wyld after he defeated the Jumara, in Shara, well before his arrival at the Last Battle on page 378 or his rant to Leane on page 406 you tried to partially quote.
I partially quoted it on what I feel is relevant and text. As far as the Jumara and the rest of it goes, that's contextually irrelevant. Why would Leanne know anything about "the Wyld" until he adds it as an afterthought? Right, she wouldn't and he would know that. Because he's smarter than the average Forsaken.

Snipped related text and speculation about Sharan prophecies that aren't represented in verse.

Quote:
The only parts of the Sharan Prophecies he failed to fulfill were to "end the Dragon's Dream, and remake the world, saving the Sharan people"
Which would render the whole prophecy a sack of garbage because it's clearly suspect. I don't believe that's the case. I believe that, like with Elaida, it's interpretaiton.

Quote:
Can you quote that again IN FULL so you can get that proper context you were chanting about?
If you want to lower the bar of this argument, please keep making snide comments about "chanting".
__________________
~ Blightwarden Eht Slat Meit li Vaelkier
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-10-2013, 08:18 PM
Ieyasu's Avatar
Ieyasu Ieyasu is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 595
Ieyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to beholdIeyasu is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Would have been, but was cut. As I said, questionable canon and I believe is acknowledged as such by BS himself.
You yourself already said you would accept Unfettered as canon. BS himself said he accepted it, only the world building he used for Sharan might be questionable, either way, you cant make this false timeline claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
He did not refer to himself as the Wyld until after calling LTT a false dragon.
...and then quibble when I point out that the reality is he was called himself Wyld long before his introductory rant to Lean on page 406 that you brought up. He never even called him a False Dragon... you do understand the parts of speech right? The difference between a noun, pronoun, and an adjective? Is this sentence what is confusing you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMOL
He is false, and I am true.
You do realize which pronoun this adjective is modifying, right? Try using an online tool to break it down into its parts of speech. Might clear up your mistake here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
You don't have a source showing the Sharan prophecies said any such thing. You're drawing what he "implied" from what you think the text of page 470 meant.
&
Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Implying, not showing. If you have a source for the exact text of the Sharan prophecies, share. This is theory material, not gospel.
I don't? lol I imply nothing from AMOL... rather I use the new evidence presented in Unfettered:
Quote:
Originally Posted by River of Souls
"Bah!" he said, pulling away from her. "You are fools, all of you. I don't care for your prophecies! I speak the worlds so I can control you. How can you not see this?"
"You have come to save us," she said. "You break us free of fate's charms. You did not know the prophecies when you first came-you have said so yourself-but you fulfilled them anyway."
"By accident."
"Releasing the enslaved, declaring all men free? That was an accident?"
"I did it to create chaos!" he said, turning.
"You have brought us unity," she replied. "You have brought us glory. The Dragon has come, Bao. Every man and woman in this land can feel it. He will try to destroy the world, and only you can stop him. There is a reason you have done what you did. The Tapestry...shall I call it by your word? The Pattern? It has brought you, and once you step into that cavern below, we will be freed from fate and be made our own people again."
no we do not have the exact words of those prophecies, much like we dont have the exact words of most of the prophecies from the essik or karaethon cycles that Rand fulfilled... but we do know that Demandred fulfilled multiple prophecies there, and was acknowledged by the populace as doing such. We know what several of them were, and we also witnessed him fulfilling another... are you attempting to deny that Demandred fulfilled any prophecies in Shara, what so ever, merely because you dont know the exact wording of those prophecies? lol seriously?!?

As for page 470? I have no idea what you are babbling about... page 470 is nothing but Egwene and Fortuana's meeting together, completely unrelated to your belief that Demandred thought he was the Dragon Reborn. Are you perhaps talking about page 406 that you mentioned earlier? or page 378 that I mentioned (Sharan arrival at the Last Battle)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
I don't know about you, but that seems contradictory to me - Rand can't be the Dragon Reborn AND not bring the world's salvation unless Demandred is completely ignorant and has discounted the entire Karaethon Cycle.
LOL... Rand is the Dragon Reborn by nature of being the reborn soul of Lews Therin the Dragon... not by being a savior. As seen from the Borderland Fork, even the Karaethon Cycle acknowledged that Rand, the Dragon Reborn, had the capacity to be this world's destroyer... all while remaining the DRAGON REBORN at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
It's not redundancy if the two sets of prophecy conflict. However, we don't have any textual evidence that allows us to reconcile one against the other. I am speculating based on the belief that both sets of prophecy are valid, and that Demandred's failure is similar to Elaida's in that he interpreted it according to his desires rather than what would actually happen.
It is redundant because I view it is along the same line as the Boarderlander Fork which would have them attempt to kill Rand if he was unfit to face the Last Battle. Well, as Rand himself pointed out, he would have True Power Balefired them before his mountain moment, since the Guardian only blocks Saidin and Saidar. Had he still been Dark Rand, the Boarderlander check on the Dragon Reborn would have failed...leaving only Demandred to stop Rand from destroying the world... when Rand passed the Boarderlander's test, he made the Sharan prophecies redundant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
I partially quoted it on what I feel is relevant and text.
You partially quoted it because the rest shows that nothing Demandred said ever indicated he suddenly believed he was Lews Therin reborn. There is only one Dragon... Demandred was his friend far longer than he was his enemy... he was batshit crazy, but not crazy enough to suddenly think he was the reborn soul of someone he actually knew

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
If you want to lower the bar of this argument, please keep making snide comments about "chanting".
Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Context, context, context.
lol...exactly how many times do you have to repeat a word before it is chanting? The bar cant get much lower when you keep arguing that Demandred suddenly up and thought he was the reborn soul of his old friend, Lews Therin the Dragon...
__________________
--It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Last edited by Ieyasu; 07-10-2013 at 09:27 PM. Reason: lol
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:26 PM
kivo kivo is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 197
kivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to all
Default

I paid $35 and that was 11 pages long.

That is all.
__________________
Re-read highlight of the week

"Who are you to ask for a meeting with the High Lady?" Falendre demanded. She emphasized the title for some reason.

"My name is Rand al'Thor. I'm the Dragon Reborn." If they had wept at hearing Semirhage's name, they wailed at hearing his.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-17-2013, 01:00 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,019
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
"the one who calls himself Dragon Reborn" - We know Rand IS the Dragon Reborn, not just calling himself that. Apparently Demandred does not..
Small argument here, but I just see that sentence as an insult. We do know he is Lews T reborn, therefore the Dragon. Demandred is using it in a scornful way...sort of like saying to Wayne Gretky (hockey reference, sorry it was the first to come to mind)---who is KNOWN as The GREAT Gretzky---tell Wayne I want to play against him, you know, the one who calls himself GREAT. Cuz he thinks he is GREAT but I am better and his nickname therefore is just stupid so I will mock it.

It is an insult, pure and simple, and in his mind a goading one in particular. Demandred is fueled by jealousy and anger, so to him it would be a pretty big insult to say, "ha, you have a nickname, THE DRAGON REBORN, and you think you are high-falutin' but you AREN'T Mr. Dragon Reborn. Nya nya nya nya nya nya. You may call yourself the Dragon Reborn, but I am still, and always have been, better than you."

All he is trying to do is goad Rand into facing him. I never took this as him saying Rand IS NOT the tru DR.
__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001

Last edited by SauceyBlueConfetti; 07-17-2013 at 01:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-17-2013, 01:04 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,019
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kivo View Post
I paid $35 and that was 11 pages long.

That is all.
You understood the point of releasing the ANTHOLOGY was to raise money for medical costs for the editor of the ANTHOLOGY?

If you just wanted Brandon's bit, Tor released that PART of the ANTHOLOGY for .99. You get what an ANTHOLOGY is, right? lolololol
__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-17-2013, 01:15 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,997
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SauceyBlueConfetti View Post
You get what an ANTHOLOGY is, right?
I know what an ant is, but what is a hology?
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-17-2013, 01:49 PM
SauceyBlueConfetti's Avatar
SauceyBlueConfetti SauceyBlueConfetti is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Michigan! the Mitten!
Posts: 2,019
SauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond reputeSauceyBlueConfetti has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Yahoo to SauceyBlueConfetti
Default

Gonzo you are more funny when you don't TRY so hard.

__________________
the Sun Dreamer, the Slade Believer, the Last Love Song on this Little Planet ...Firseal
Oh Xxxxx, do you have to leave so soon? I was just about to poison your tea.
LAST WORD -- (so it is clear I got The Last Word in)
Yeah. Murderous Saucey. My superhero name
I am Detroit. You REALLY wanna call me wimpy?
Haphazardly Spell & Fact Checked Since June 2001
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.