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  #1  
Old 01-30-2014, 06:37 PM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
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Default The Link Between Moridin and Rand

I was just thinking about the link between these two and was wondering, would Moridin suffer any ill effects if Rand had been killed by the renegade Asha'man or at the attack on Algarin's manor?

The fact that Rand is seeing his face in his head and it affects his ability to channel suggests they are closely linked, so could killing Rand actually be dangerous for Moridin?
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:47 PM
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I was just thinking about the link between these two and was wondering, would Moridin suffer any ill effects if Rand had been killed by the renegade Asha'man or at the attack on Algarin's manor?

The fact that Rand is seeing his face in his head and it affects his ability to channel suggests they are closely linked, so could killing Rand actually be dangerous for Moridin?
My guess is that yes, yes it would. If losing his hand made Moridin's hand hurt (and it clearly did), having Rand die would also be pretty bad for him. Probably a big part of why Moridin didnt want him dead.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:23 AM
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My impression from the end of AMOL was that Moghedien was behind ordering the attack on Algarin's Manor, since it mentioned something about her being able to impersonte other Chosen. She wouldn't have ordered this without Moridin's knowledge, right? So, why do it if it could potentially kill him too?

Also, didn't Moridin have some role in the order of the renegade Asha'man? Didn't he want Rand dead during the Cleansing?
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:59 AM
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My impression from the end of AMOL was that Moghedien was behind ordering the attack on Algarin's Manor, since it mentioned something about her being able to impersonte other Chosen. She wouldn't have ordered this without Moridin's knowledge, right? So, why do it if it could potentially kill him too?

Also, didn't Moridin have some role in the order of the renegade Asha'man? Didn't he want Rand dead during the Cleansing?
I don't think he knew about how deep the connection was until Semirhage tried to kill Rand and ended up incenerating his hand and partially blinding him.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:57 AM
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Good point
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:29 PM
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I'm not so sure about that. He did give her specific orders not to physically harm him, exactly for that reason.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:55 PM
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Terez, you're pretty knowledgeable on the Rand/Moridin thing. As a plot device, do you suppose it had any purpose beyond granting Rand access to the True Power? I know that it wasn't enough to make Callandor a TP sa'angreal; RJ also had to make Rand aware of the fact that it was a TP sa'angreal and that means he had to channel it at least once.

I've always liked your theory that Moridin secretly bonded Rand, though I'm not sure if bonding would be enough to accomplish a body swap. Was it just a plot device, or do you see a larger symbolism?
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:29 AM
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If Rand started touching himself, would Moridin get a boner?
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:21 PM
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OMFG.

So if Moridin sat on his hand until it fell asleep...
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:33 AM
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Terez, you're pretty knowledgeable on the Rand/Moridin thing. As a plot device, do you suppose it had any purpose beyond granting Rand access to the True Power? I know that it wasn't enough to make Callandor a TP sa'angreal; RJ also had to make Rand aware of the fact that it was a TP sa'angreal and that means he had to channel it at least once.

I've always liked your theory that Moridin secretly bonded Rand, though I'm not sure if bonding would be enough to accomplish a body swap. Was it just a plot device, or do you see a larger symbolism?
This is something I posted about back when the book came out. One of the reasons I never liked the bodyswap theory (aside from the ick factor, which I always acknowledged was irrational in itself) was the fact that the foreshadowing did not seem to predict a swap but rather a merge. I always assumed that the reason Rand had to die was to sever the link, but I figured it was impossible for Rand to die without Moridin dying, which really threw a wrench into the spokes of the theories I was trying to craft on the subject (which is part of why my theory site never went live). The pieces just didn't fit.

Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
...I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).
Very well done!!
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Old 03-13-2014, 05:08 PM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
This is something I posted about back when the book came out. One of the reasons I never liked the bodyswap theory (aside from the ick factor, which I always acknowledged was irrational in itself) was the fact that the foreshadowing did not seem to predict a swap but rather a merge. I always assumed that the reason Rand had to die was to sever the link, but I figured it was impossible for Rand to die without Moridin dying, which really threw a wrench into the spokes of the theories I was trying to craft on the subject (which is part of why my theory site never went live). The pieces just didn't fit.

Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.

I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.

And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.

That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.

Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.

The overarching theme of WoT is balance, and while the symbol for the One Power represents saidar and saidin, it also represents Light and Shadow. In a sense, it's a conflation caused by the taint and the Breaking, but in a sense it also represents the cycle of the Wheel, and the need for the Dark One to be broken free once every Turn.

In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.

Thank you! That actually helped to really organized a lot of thoughts about the ending and the nature of this link. I think the theory that Luc and Tigraine are Shevan and Calian is a good theory. It's the only really believable explanation for the nature of Slayer--that I've seen anyway.

And, if Luc and Tigraine are HOTH, I think it's reasonable to think that perhaps Nakomi is Tigraine?
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Old 03-13-2014, 06:46 PM
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Thank you! That actually helped to really organized a lot of thoughts about the ending and the nature of this link. I think the theory that Luc and Tigraine are Shevan and Calian is a good theory. It's the only really believable explanation for the nature of Slayer--that I've seen anyway.

And, if Luc and Tigraine are HOTH, I think it's reasonable to think that perhaps Nakomi is Tigraine
?
I love it!!! It makes so much freaking sense!!! How the hell did no one think of that before?
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:35 PM
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Okay, I'm a little confused.


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Now that it's done, it makes a lot more sense, because I don't think that Moridin necessarily died at the end. The "necessarily" is important because I think RJ always meant to leave it hanging in a very Schrödinger kind of way (to use his own terminology for the art of writing fantasy). But it still should have been impossible for one to die without the other dying if the link was to serve any other purpose beyond a simple plot device. What I mean by that is, for Moridin to die, his thread would have had to have been cut (severing the link by way of the afterlife), but his thread had merged with Rand's, so the severing of that link would deserve, in pure storytelling terms, some sort of in-book explanation as to what happened. Anything less is deus ex machina which in turn cheapens the arc of the merge. Not everything in a story has to be explained, but the get-out-of-death-free card is one of those things.
You're saying that whatever happens to one happens to the other? So, if one dies, the other dies too? Except that's not what happened. Yes, there's a mirroring effect but when Rand lost his hand, Moridin's hand didn't suddenly become rotting dead tissue. So while I'd fully expect Rand to feel Moridin's death, I don't think you can necessarily say that he'd instantly die if Moridin were killed.

So I don't think you can use the fact that Rand is still alive to justify the argument that Moridin must also be alive.


Quote:
I think there is a certain poetry to the idea that Moridin did not get the oblivion that he was so much looking forward to, because his thread is still tied to Rand's. RJ even planted a hint of what that might be like for Moridin by describing what happens when your cour'souvra gets crushed. It fits much better the foreshadowing, in TEOTW 24 when Rand dreamed that he merged with Ishamael, and Min's viewing. She said one dies, and the other does not, but it was Rand's body that died, which would seem to work on the same level as all the other prophecies that said Rand, specifically, would die.
But it's a matter of degree, right?

As I said, it's not a perfect symmetrical relationship; Moridin didn't lose his hand or have the hand stop functioning when Rand lost his. The imagery you use suggests that Rand's thread and Moridin's thread became one single thread. But what if it's more of a case of two separate threads being stuck together. Like gluing to strands of yarn together?

Quote:
And in fact, if Rand is technically dead, and his soul has technically gone to the afterlife in Tel'aran'rhiod, it provides an eloquent explanation for why the waking world is like the World of Dreams for Rand now. His soul is in Tel'aran'rhiod, but since his thread merged with Moridin's, his body is in the waking world.
But Slayer doesn't have the ability to shape the waking world as he does Tel'Aran'Rhiod. So, why would Rand get this power?

Quote:
That brings to mind Dom's theory that Calian and Shivan are not Elayne's twins, but Tigraine and Luc, and that Slayer was created by merging Luc with Isam, and then killing Luc's body, sending his soul to the afterlife. "One did live, and one did die, but both are"—from the Dark Prophecy in TGH, about Slayer. But we know that RJ had the last scene in mind before he started writing, and of course, he foreshadowed Rand's eventual fate in TEOTW 24.
Shivan and Calian appeared at Falme. By this theory, Luc's soul was in Isam's body. Moreover, if as many people believe, the heroes appear in their latest incarnations, then wouldn't Rand have seen Tigraine and not Calian? (Or is Shivan the woman?)

Quote:
Of course, Slayer could change back and forth between Luc and Isam, and considering Rand's pipe, he can probably do the same in a physical sense (which relieves the aforementioned ick factor), but Rand is different because he is Rand even in Moridin's body. But since TPOD at the latest, he has been Moridin too, in a very real sense.
He has? I think the best you can say is that Moridin has been influencing Rand. And I've always been skeptical of that idea. I tend to think it's more the Dark One himself who influenced Rand, first via the taint and then via the True Power.


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In Rand specifically, it has implications beyond that. He was a good-natured boy when the story began, and no matter how it progressed he remained that kind of person, but the taint started him down a dark path that was only worsened when he began to merge with Moridin, however that came about. In order to defeat his enemy, he had to become his enemy, and defeat the darkness that was inside himself. He accomplished that on Dragonmount, and though he was still clearly merged with Moridin after Dragonmount, he was completely in control of himself. He had simply overpowered the part of himself that was Moridin, and more broadly, the part of himself that was under the influence of evil (from the taint, from Moridin, and from the imperfect qualities of his own character).

On top of those thematic implications, it provides an way for him to go incognito without channeling, and perhaps more importantly, as was hinted in Aviendha's visions of the future, perhaps it's Moridin's personality that gives Rand the necessary selfishness to stay out of the conflicts happening in the world after the Last Battle, which is something that bothered a lot of readers. But perhaps it took a vestige of Moridin to allow Rand to actually enjoy the fruits of a job well done.
First of all, how do you know that Rand doesn't get involved in future conflicts. He just might not be using the name Rand al'Thor. (In fact, it's a good bet that he isn't.) The POVs Aviendha saw were those of her descendents who wouldn't know that Rand is still alive if he took a new name. The girls seem pretty convinced that they should keep his secret. Doesn't Aviendha say, "Now we make sure everyone thinks he's dead."


Second, if Rand gained complete control over the evil within himself on Dragonmount, then wouldn't he still have that control after the body swap? Even if there is a ghost of Moridin urging him to be selfish, wouldn't he be able to squash that instinct?
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:29 AM
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I think the reason one couldn't die without the other is because their threads were merged; the mental merging and, to a lesser extent, the physical merging, was a byproduct of the merged threads. Rand is, for all his new powers, still quite human and just as capable as before of failing to recognize his mundane weaknesses. It's evil he no longer has to worry about, not weakness. He gained control by moderating the part of himself that is Moridin, not by getting rid of Moridin altogether.

The only possible way to merge the life-threads of two people (in two bodies) is metaphysically, so it makes sense that the physical aspects of their bond were always subtle. In the same way, it makes little difference that one body is now dead; Rand is probably the same as he was before. But their merging is not a theory; it was predicted by Min, and we've seen it happen. It's just down to whether you believe the death of Rand's body changed anything.

Neither Moghedien nor Mesaana believed that an a'dam could be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Egwene didn't believe it could be used to stop balefire. That's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod; the power is all in the mind. Rand has not only Lews Therin's memories now, but perhaps also Moridin's Talent, and the experience of having personally shaped the Pattern at the Bore (which always resembled Tel'aran'rhiod in its reflection of reality). That experience does not give him the power, but it does give him the ability to wrap his head around it.

We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.
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Old 03-14-2014, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.
That is a very interesting. Assuming the last battle does not always happen during the same age, I would argue that it is the last incarnation as some souls may not necessarily be able to be spun out more than once. And then of course new heroes are added, such as Noal. I would think that if he were a more established Hero of the Horn, he would have appeared in his most notorious form.
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post

Shivan and Calian appeared at Falme. By this theory, Luc's soul was in Isam's body. Moreover, if as many people believe, the heroes appear in their latest incarnations, then wouldn't Rand have seen Tigraine and not Calian? (Or is Shivan the woman?)

Weren't they wearing masks at Falme? Also, Rand doesn't know what Tigraine looks like or even that she was his mother at Falme, so I don't think it would have meant much to him anyway
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:19 PM
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I think the reason one couldn't die without the other is because their threads were merged; the mental merging and, to a lesser extent, the physical merging, was a byproduct of the merged threads. Rand is, for all his new powers, still quite human and just as capable as before of failing to recognize his mundane weaknesses. It's evil he no longer has to worry about, not weakness. He gained control by moderating the part of himself that is Moridin, not by getting rid of Moridin altogether.

The only possible way to merge the life-threads of two people (in two bodies) is metaphysically, so it makes sense that the physical aspects of their bond were always subtle. In the same way, it makes little difference that one body is now dead; Rand is probably the same as he was before. But their merging is not a theory; it was predicted by Min, and we've seen it happen. It's just down to whether you believe the death of Rand's body changed anything.

Neither Moghedien nor Mesaana believed that an a'dam could be defeated in Tel'aran'rhiod, and Egwene didn't believe it could be used to stop balefire. That's the nature of Tel'aran'rhiod; the power is all in the mind. Rand has not only Lews Therin's memories now, but perhaps also Moridin's Talent, and the experience of having personally shaped the Pattern at the Bore (which always resembled Tel'aran'rhiod in its reflection of reality). That experience does not give him the power, but it does give him the ability to wrap his head around it.

We've discussed the question of whether the Heroes appear as the last incarnation, or simply the most notorious one. There are good arguments that it's the latter, but either way, there is no given.
Honestly you convinced me and changed my mind. I was firmly in the "no merge" camp but this just makes too much sense and answers many different questions. As I mentioned to you, I actually printed this and put it in the back of my book.
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:21 PM
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Also, I should have reiterated earlier that there is a difference between the soul and the life-thread. As I said initially, the Slayer theory requires that Luc's body be dead and his soul be in Tel'aran'rhiod. It's his life-thread that was merged with Isam's, not his soul. The life-thread only covers the incarnation; when the life-thread is cut, the soul goes to the afterlife, and it gets a new thread when it is spun out again.
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Old 03-15-2014, 12:53 AM
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This should have its own panel at Jordancon.
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