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  #1  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:38 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Default "Notes on books 2 through 6" by Robert Jordan.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlNahMUCAAA-CTg.jpg

This is a condensed summary of the books post EotW as envisaged by RJ. Interesting to see how much survived, and also the major even that never transpired as described.

Source: Werthead on the Westeros literature forum. Will update when I find out more.
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:14 PM
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Out of curiosity, how did he come by them? Did he steal them from RJ's estate or something?
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:18 PM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default 2 through 6

Someone rooting through dumpsters?

Seems odd he'd contemplate books 2 through 6 when Book 1 was not yet published. Is that consistent with what we know about how the books were pitched and other quotes about how many there would be back near the beginning of the series?
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:22 PM
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Even for notes, the writing seems a bit off....

I thought he originally pitched it as a trilogy and then later expanded it to 6 books when he realized a trilogy wouldn't be enough.
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:31 PM
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Where the hell was that? That would have made a brilliant story. That was the story I thought I was reading when I first picked up this series!
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:29 PM
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Terez posted it on Facebook a few days ago. I believe her and Marie are currently at the library which a lot of this stuff was donated to.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:40 PM
Southpaw2012 Southpaw2012 is offline
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Terez posted it on Facebook a few days ago. I believe her and Marie are currently at the library which a lot of this stuff was donated to.
This is correct. She has posted many little tidbits of what RJ had planned while thinking up twot and ended up changing. One interesting tidbit is the fact that Galad was supposed to be the son of Lan and Morgase and would have started channeling late in series.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:15 AM
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He should have gone with that outline. For one thing, if executed the way he described it on that page, it would make the whole "you have to let people choose for themselves" lesson less forced. Instead of Rand learning that he cannot rewrite reality to suit his desires (as if anyone should need to learn that), he would learn that genuine cooperation produces far better results than forced obedience. (If anyone says "well, duh..." to that, I would offer that pretty much everyone who writes US and Canadian foreign policy could stand to learn that lesson).

Also, Galad channeling would have been great.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
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Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:05 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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He should have gone with that outline. For one thing, if executed the way he described it on that page, it would make the whole "you have to let people choose for themselves" lesson less forced. Instead of Rand learning that he cannot rewrite reality to suit his desires (as if anyone should need to learn that), he would learn that genuine cooperation produces far better results than forced obedience. (If anyone says "well, duh..." to that, I would offer that pretty much everyone who writes US and Canadian foreign policy could stand to learn that lesson).
I agree. I feel there was still a way to do this in aMoL. Have Rand and Egwene unable to reach an agreement. Rand is still his "dark self", so he goes "alone" to Shayol Ghul, breaks the Seals, and the DO breaks free as happened in the books. Only this time, Rand doesn't have a plan to reseal, and he's defeated.

That done, he now has to build back both his alliance and his friendships. This would have been the perfect time to have his epiphany. Moiraine comes back to help with that, then helps him build bridges with Egwene, Cadsuane, Tuon, Perrin, etc. With times so desperate, people finally unite around him, and then the story carries forward pretty much as it did in the books.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:12 PM
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I think his disastrous attempt to kill the Dark One would need to come earlier. Leaving the epiphany to the very end was a mistake. The outline seems to describe a gradual redemption of Rand, which is what we should have had.

Edit:
Because the story we got implies that years of persecution, mistrust, physical and mental abuse and the knowledge that you're going to die for people who spit on you can be fixed by an afternoon of "putting it all in perspective. The human mind doesn't work that way.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.

Last edited by Seeker; 04-16-2014 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:14 PM
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Even for notes, the writing seems a bit off....

I thought he originally pitched it as a trilogy and then later expanded it to 6 books when he realized a trilogy wouldn't be enough.
That's already part of "the expansion". When he made his first pitch, he had the gist of the plot and characters of TEOTW, the general concept that Rand would try to unite nations and fail, and the gist of the LB/confrontation with Shai'tan and its nature.

In the early 80s, Harriet got him an appointment with her boss Doherty to pitch his idea for a Fantasy book. He talked of his first book and the general concepts of WOT as the origin of legends and being the source of more - and the general notion of the necessity of evil to have free will, and he told Doherty he had ideas that he could develop into 2, 3 or 4 more books. He knew the beginning (by which he mean the TR stuff) and the ending (the end of AMOL), but the in between was still vague in the extreme. RJ has explained (in an interview) that at the time he made thar pitch to Tor, trilogies were still the norm in Fantasy, and 4 books was already pushing it. He actually had no idea how many books he'd write at the time - the story wasn't fleshed out enough for that. However, Doherty rather insisted right away to sign RJ for six books, but he could fulfill the contract with other novels if he didn't need the whole six for WOT.

That document Terez found seems to be a written version of the ideas/synopsis/concepts for "the rest of the story" and most clearly of its ending that he had previously pitched verbally to Doherty. It's probably from sometime around 83-84-85.

Then he set to write TEOTW from his draft, only to realize early that he had to stop and figure out a lot more details of the world building and concepts, the nations and characters etc. before he could write the novel. In an interview he compared that phase to building a stronger treillis before he could make roses grow on it the way he wished. So he did that, likely drafted TGH too at the time, and returned to write what would become the final TEOTW. He spent four years altogether on the writing of TEOTW, and that document seems likely to predate his start on it.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:50 PM
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I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:00 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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I think his disastrous attempt to kill the Dark One would need to come earlier. Leaving the epiphany to the very end was a mistake. The outline seems to describe a gradual redemption of Rand, which is what we should have had.

Edit:
Because the story we got implies that years of persecution, mistrust, physical and mental abuse and the knowledge that you're going to die for people who spit on you can be fixed by an afternoon of "putting it all in perspective. The human mind doesn't work that way.
Oh I agree. I was just saying that even given the first 11 books being exactly as they were, RJ still had a chance to keep his original vision alive if he wanted to.

Like you, though, I feel book 8/9 would have been a great time to have the disaster, and have the DO free. That's right around when the weird effects on the Pattern showed up anyway. With the DO fully free, these could have been amped up, and the sense of danger could have been more palpable. Then we could have Rand take his time learning his lessons and mending fences, and a world-saving coalition could have formed gradually rather than under a tent one morning.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:08 PM
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I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.
I don't really see why the story has to be Rand-centric, though. Rather takes away from the point that you need cooperation, no?

I'd rather have it that Rand failing to unite the world and failing at SG comes before Egwene, Mat and Perrin get their shit together. So Perrin refuses to help because Faile is a captive (how much darker and interesting would that be), Mat is Mat, and refuses to face up to his responsibility, and Egwene has half the Tower nominally behind her, but refuses to lend aid to Rand because she disagrees with his plan.

The next book can then be about these four getting their acts together, except the stakes are much higher now that the Bore is wide open. Perrin needs to get beyond his "Faile first" mentality and face up to the fact that he needs to embrace his role as a leader. Mat needs to acknowledge that he has a large role to play in saving the world, and especially bringing the Seanchan and Rand/Egwene together. Egwene needs to unite the Tower rather than divide it, and work with Rand, even if she doesn't agree with everything he does. And Rand himself needs to balance between these divided loyalties and priorities and his own baggage.

Ahhh.... what could have been.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:32 PM
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I don't really see why the story has to be Rand-centric, though. Rather takes away from the point that you need cooperation, no?

I'd rather have it that Rand failing to unite the world and failing at SG comes before Egwene, Mat and Perrin get their shit together. So Perrin refuses to help because Faile is a captive (how much darker and interesting would that be), Mat is Mat, and refuses to face up to his responsibility, and Egwene has half the Tower nominally behind her, but refuses to lend aid to Rand because she disagrees with his plan.

The next book can then be about these four getting their acts together, except the stakes are much higher now that the Bore is wide open. Perrin needs to get beyond his "Faile first" mentality and face up to the fact that he needs to embrace his role as a leader. Mat needs to acknowledge that he has a large role to play in saving the world, and especially bringing the Seanchan and Rand/Egwene together. Egwene needs to unite the Tower rather than divide it, and work with Rand, even if she doesn't agree with everything he does. And Rand himself needs to balance between these divided loyalties and priorities and his own baggage.

Ahhh.... what could have been.
What you described would be pretty brilliant. It's mostly what I was thinking, but I don't think I expressed myself well. When I say Rand-centric, I mean that he has to be a much more active character than he was in the latter half of the series. A good chunk of each book has to be Rand POV (not just a few chapters) and he has to be actively progressing the plot the whole time.

The rest of those books have to be Mat/Egwene/Perrin POV with the odd minor POV for flavour in prologues, epilogues and transition chapters.

Now, I should point out that what we're doing is armchair quarterbacking. It's easy for us to say "He could have done this or that" after the story is over. And there's nothing wrong with that. So long as we don't get too convinced of our own correctness.

The point is that if you want the story that he described (and that was the kind of story that I was hoping for), you have to keep to a limited number of POV characters.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:44 PM
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What you described would be pretty brilliant. It's mostly what I was thinking, but I don't think I expressed myself well. When I say Rand-centric, I mean that he has to be a much more active character than he was in the latter half of the series. A good chunk of each book has to be Rand POV (not just a few chapters) and he has to be actively progressing the plot the whole time.
Oh I agree with that. I think the reason we had so little Rand in the later series is that RJ knew there was going to be an epiphany that will magically solve his issues. So I agree that a more realistic change in Rand would require more Rand, and Moiraine and Cadsuane (if they're to remain partial drivers of his change) PoVs.

Quote:
The rest of those books have to be Mat/Egwene/Perrin POV with the odd minor POV for flavour in prologues, epilogues and transition chapters.
Not necessarily. I think RJ did fairly well showing these major characters through the eyes of more minor ones, and that had to continue. Obviously we want Elayne, Nynaeve and Aviendha to have quite a bit of the action too (I just didn't mention them because while important, they're somewhat more accessory parts of the final puzzle). But I also feel smaller PoVs like Siuan, Romanda, Aes Sedai around Rand, etc. helped flesh out the Big Four characters' storylines. Could they have been curtailed compared to the main series? Maybe.
Quote:
Now, I should point out that what we're doing is armchair quarterbacking. It's easy for us to say "He could have done this or that" after the story is over. And there's nothing wrong with that. So long as we don't get too convinced of our own correctness.
Oh I agree. I don't even necessarily see the need to restrict this to 8 books. Even a 12 book story seems feasible. In fact, my biggest gripe with the series now is that the "Last Battle" was just one book. It just seemed so much easier than either the War of Shadow or the Trolloc Wars. The characters barely get to react to it, and that makes for bad storytelling.

But imagine pretty much half of a 12 book series with the Dark One free, and the "Last Battle" being more of a "Last War" culminating in an epic final battle (to be fair, it was this way, but the stakes never seemed high enough with the DO locked up), and I can see no major issues with a 12 book strategy.
Quote:
The point is that if you want the story that he described (and that was the kind of story that I was hoping for), you have to keep to a limited number of POV characters.
I disagree there. That same story can be had with plenty of other PoVs. It just won't be an 8 book, and definitely not a 6 book, series.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:45 PM
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Sticking to the episodic nature of the the first books would make it work better.

Book 1: this is the story where Rand leaves the Two Rivers

Book 2: this is the Story where Rand hunts the horn.

Book 3: This is the story where Rand takes Callandor and unites the Aiel. (Book 3 had very little Rand plot so to keep the momentum going, trying to blend those two together)


Book 4: This is the story where Rand takes Cairhien and Andor (also the founding of the Asha'man)

Book 5: This is the Story where Rand takes Illian and and Arad Domon

Book 6: This is the story where Rand cleanses the taint and and attacks the Dark One.

Book 7: This is the story where Rand is a beggar.

Book 8: This is the story where Rand seals up the Dark One.


Do the same with the others.


Book 3: This is the story where Egwene hunts the BA in Tear

Book 4: This is the story where Egwene and Nynaeve hunt the BA in Tanchico (Yes, you read that right).

Book 5: This is the story where Egwene is named Amyrlin.

Book 6: This is the story where Egwene cements hold over the Salidar Sisters


Book 7: This is the story where Egwene unites the White Tower.


Book 8: The Last battle.

*******************8


Book 4: This is the story where Perrin saves the two Rivers.

Book 5: This is the story where Perrin heads south to stop the prophet.

Book 6: This is the story where Perrin obsessively tries to rescue Faile.

Book 7: This is the story where Perrin unites forces with Elayne. (Work him into the Andor plot)

Book 8: The last battle.

************
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:52 PM
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Book 4: This is the story where Egwene and Nynaeve hunt the BA in Tanchico (Yes, you read that right).
So there's no Elayne in this version? Do Egwene and Rand stick together as a couple then? That would be... interesting.

But I don't see this working. She needs to be with Rand for the Aiel. Not only are the Aiel critical for her character growth and revolution in the Tower, the time she and Rand spent in the Waste are critical to widen the rift between them. Till then its all about them rushing away to save the other. The Waste is where their agendas start diverging, and you seriously need that. A major part of Rand hating the Aes Sedai is Elaida having him kidnapped, but the I think the more important part is a deep-seated (sadly unexplored in the later series) resentment of the Aes Sedai for taking Egwene away from him. I don't think we'd have that if we didn't have months of Rand seeing Egwene siding with Moiriane and the Wise Ones and confusing that with thinking she is abandoning him.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:59 PM
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Rand was originally supposed to hook up with Morgase, who was a mix of Morgase, Elaida, and Berelain, and who gave birth to Galad via Lan. Galad was not only supposed to channel but also turn to the Shadow because of Rand's affair with Morgase. (Out of that came Gawyn.)

I could go on and on and on. The nascent ideas were in some ways very different from what we got. In some areas, though, the words in the books are almost exactly the same as the words in the outline.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
I think the series would need 8 books to do what he described. Assuming Eye stays the way it is. (Rand finds out he's the Dragon at the End), then what you have is as follows.

2 and 3 involve Rand running from his role as the dragon.

4, 5 and 6 are Rand trying to unite the world by military force, culminating in his disastrous attack on Shayol Ghul at the end of 6.

7 is Rand's epiphany book. It would take an entire book to do that right.

8 is the resolution.

The story would have to be very Rand-centric with sub-plots for Egwene/Mat/Perrin but with most other characters kept to the background.
With a world as big and complex and a cast as huge as in the published series, and with the multiple POV characters style RJ finally adopted after EOTW in particular, it could be a fair guess.

But I think you might overestimate the stage of development of the series when he made that pitch and that synopsis that explains his concept and thematic goals more than it lays out the story between those A and B points, that didn't yet exist.

I don't think RJ left clear hints that he intended already to have multiple side story lines beside Rand's, or to have many "main heroes" aside from Rand, or that he meant to turn it into a chronicle of an universe in the days of the LB. Rather, he left hints in interviews that the huge success of the first books let him turn the series in that direction with books 4-5-6.

From the few EOTW bits posted by Terez a few days ago, Mat and Perrin didn't even exist yet other than collectively of an unspecified number of "boys" tagging along, and playing no individual role (as we know, drafts of TEOTW eventually had four of them, before Harriet had RJ cut the one who seemed to have no purpose). The ta'veren concept didn't exist yet either. Egwene who wanted to be AS and Nynaeve who loathed them seemed more the characters we know already, but Mat & Perrin had yet to emerge.

So guessing on the number of books he would have needed sounds a bit futile. It wouldn't have been the series as we know it, and its pacing and scope might have been quite different.
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