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Old 05-10-2014, 04:09 AM
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Default RJ's notes

As some of you know, Marie Curie and I spent a week in Charleston digging through RJ's notes in the College of Charleston library. We were able to take away a good bit of stuff before Harriet decided not to allow scans that Friday (I emailed Alan about this on Monday, and they took all week making this decision). Needless to say we are not allowed to post scans online, and we're trying to stay away from stuff that will be in the Encyclopedia, but I have been sharing tidbits on Twitter/Facebook.

I talked to bossman about doing a series of homepage articles on RJ's earliest ideas about the series, i.e. mostly before TEOTW is published and no later than TDR (we have almost no notes between TDR and LOC, which makes a good dividing line). I am still going to do that but I felt compelled to reorient myself to the later files and work my way backward to the dividing line before really digging into the early stuff beyond what I've already done. I am sharing everything with Linda because 1) she is trusted by Team Jordan more than I am, obviously, 2) she needs the notes more than I do for her work, and 3) she would have gone to the library this year if her annual JordanCon trip hadn't been waylaid by job loss and other complications. (She got a new job, but she was out of work at the wrong time.) I have also been discussing the notes more than anyone else with Dom, Linda's once-partner at 13th Depository. I have been talking to him more than anyone else this last year or so because he's helping me learn French, so he is a natural person to blab with.

So at the moment I am reading a lot of stuff in Encyclopedia territory, most of which I can't share, but there are (as there always have been) tidbits on the edges which seem appropriate to share. I figured I would start a thread here to summarize what I've said publicly so far and also have a place to share longer thoughts if I have them, for anyone who might happen to be interested.

Strength in the power has not traditionally been one of our focus points here, but there has been some discussion of it. RJ's scale is much more detailed and filled out than I really expected, which is not to say there aren't a few gaps. With one exception (Moiraine), I won't give strengths for anyone except those we already knew, i.e. people whose strengths set boundaries like Moridin and Lanfear and Daighan, for two reasons: 1) that's Encyclopedia territory, and 2) I'm not sure what they will feel compelled to change. (The notes can be very fluid sometimes, and there are a few contradictions.)

For the boundaries: Moridin is tip-top for men, and Lanfear for women. We're not sure from what we have seen how many levels are between them, but we suspect there are six male levels above Lanfear. (Not Cyndane.) RJ said that the male bottom and the female bottom are roughly equivalent. Moiraine appears to be rock bottom.

It may be that Moiraine is not strictly rock bottom and there are as many as 3 levels below her, but in that case there would probably be fewer male levels above Lanfear (totally possible). We know of at least 3 male levels above Lanfear from the Forsaken notes of KOD era, Aginor being the only dead one included.

The reason we have this 3-level error estimate is because we suspect RJ meant for there to be 72 total levels of strength. Team Jordan, if they do include strengths, might choose to simplify it to a 72-scale. (I probably would; RJ's way of doing it was entirely idiomatic and intended to avoid errors when he switched systems.)

He appears to have started out, like he said, with a 21-scale for Aes Sedai. Then he realized this didn't give him enough nuance to work with and he expanded the Aes Sedai scale to 33. However, this scale did not include the Supergirls or Cadsuane, so Moiraine/Siuan/Elaida/Romanda/Lelaine were at level 1, and Daighan (lowest level to be allowed to test for the shawl) was at level 33. Anyone stronger than Elaida et al. would be indicated by a + on that scale.

Then he decided to make an expanded scale to include stronger women. On this scale, Lanfear (not Cyndane) was level 1 and Daighan was level 45. But since he had the potential problem of ending up with two similar-looking and indistinguishable scales (these numbers are scattered everywhere, virtually any time the Aes Sedai are mentioned in whatever file), he used both numbers. So Lanfear is 1/+12, Elaida is 13/1, and Daighan is 45/33.

Moiraine went from 13/1 to 66/54. We believe that this is rock bottom because it's well below the level where a woman can channel consistently (though Moiraine has experience on her side, and an angreal), and also because it's the bottom of an age-correlation scale he set up that gives rough life expectancies sans-Oaths. Life expectancy is strength-dependent (which we already knew). Nowhere in the notes does RJ give a lower strength than 66/54; even Sorilea is higher, maybe Morgase too.

So that means there are 66 total levels for women. That also happens to be the max number of women in a full circle of 72 (which would include 6 men). This is why I lean toward there being 6 male levels above Lanfear; it would fit with RJ saying there were 'several' better than 3.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:31 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Once again, thanks for sharing all you can, Terez!
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So that means there are 66 total levels for women. That also happens to be the max number of women in a full circle of 72 (which would include 6 men). This is why I lean toward there being 6 male levels above Lanfear; it would fit with RJ saying there were 'several' better than 3.
Interesting. Functionally, we know Lanfear is effectively as strong as Rand/Moridin because of women's greater dexterity. That there are 3-6 levels of raw strength above Lanfear makes me wonder if RJ intended for dexterity to be a constant for women which multiplied their raw strength by a little bit, or is dexterity also a gradient, from high to low, where women have more levels than men.

Either ways, I can see why the minimum strength for both men and women would be the same.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:30 PM
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Cool stuff.

I've been out of the WoT loop for the past few weeks, so sorry if this has already come up, but:

Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
That there are 3-6 levels of raw strength above Lanfear makes me wonder if RJ intended for dexterity to be a constant for women which multiplied their raw strength by a little bit, or is dexterity also a gradient, from high to low, where women have more levels than men.
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I
Quote:
One of the things I’ve been doing when I answer questions is that I’ve been saying that this is my understanding and putting an asterisk at the bottom that is a - I am speaking from my understanding and not from specific knowledge from the notes, meaning yes I am probably right but these are the questions I could be wrong on…this one my understanding is that it is a reservoir of power. It is not necessarily a magnification. A very weak person with a very powerful sa’angreal is very powerful. I’m pretty sure on that one, but I will add the asterisk just in case.
There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman) or if you prefer it boosts you by 66 steps, the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest (the angreal bit is much less speculative, since we have a good approximation of the strength of Moiraine's in TOM - it makes her stronger than Romanda, thus over 55 levels, which is confirmed, with more accuracy - a precise level she reaches with it - in the notes).

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Old 05-11-2014, 07:49 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dom View Post
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.
I don't think I worded myself well. When I said "multiply", I wasn't quite being descriptive enough. Basically, the one you describe is where dexterity is a constant. It "adds" or "multiplies" to the base strength of the women. Its either a Talent they all posses in equal measure, or more likely a feature of saidar itself (maybe because it is more calm, unlike the chaotic saidin?).

The other option was that there was a scale for dexterity too, and it is entirely different from the strength scale (in that you could have very strong channlers with low dexterity and vice versa and everything in between). You then take a character's position in both scales, and perform some mathematical function to arrive at their effective strength. This doesn't appear to be the case, and I'm thankful for that, since it would have been a nightmare to figure out what people could effectively do.

Quote:
At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?
This is fascinating, isn't it. That there are 72 levels and 72 is the maximum for a circle is interesting. Though we must remember that a circle of 72 can forcibly introduce one more person into the circle.

Quote:
By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I
This is for sa'angreal, right? Because some of what Elayne says make it appear angreal are multiplicative. Though there's a way to interpret her statement to mean it just adds a constant amount, almost like linking with a reservoir of someone's stored strength (and, incidentally, there's a lot of similarity between using an angreal and linking).

Quote:
There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman), the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest.
The CK might have been made by a super huge circle that was all using sa'angreal and angreal.

What particularly interests me is how making angreal seems so similar to what the Finn did with Moiraine. The Seed drains your natural strength.

Now, since the Finn did this too, and gave Moiraine an angreal to prolong their pleasure, it could be that if you made an angreal while using an angreal, you would increase the strength of the new angreal. Kind of compounding the effect.

The one major question is: what about sa'angreal like Callandor and Vora's wand. The CK seem proof that you can separate out the buffer from the OP magnifying effects of a sa'angreal. Maybe Vora's Wand and Callandor were practice sa'angreal, of sorts. In their making, the channlers learned the need to come up with a new buffering mechanism for super-strong sa'angreal, making the CK possible.

All of which, I hope, will be discussed to some extent in the encyclopedia.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I don't think I worded myself well. When I said "multiply", I wasn't quite being descriptive enough. Basically, the one you describe is where dexterity is a constant. It "adds" or "multiplies" to the base strength of the women. Its either a Talent they all posses in equal measure, or more likely a feature of saidar itself (maybe because it is more calm, unlike the chaotic saidin?).
That would be for both. But consider this as being totally inconclusive for now.

We have almost nothing about them for now except the exact strength of three of them. Alas, they all are "personal angreal" only one character would use in the series, so RJ expressed their strength by indicating to which level it pushed the character (they are Moiraine's from the Finns, Graendal's ring and Cadsuane's bird).

But let's just say that if Moiraine's multiplied strength, since we know if brings her from level 66 to a (+) level ("above Romanda/Lelaine"), it would mean Lanfear with it could match about 60 women like her... while Rand thought he could handle 200 damane with the male CK. That would make the CK very weak in comparison.

So it is more likely that a very strong angreal would nearly double Lanfear's strength, and would explain why it's san'angreal she drools over.

But it would also mean Elayne seriously misjudged her angreal when she called it "not very strong" and it slightly more than doubled her strength.

But she well might have overestimated the top limit of angreal, having the example of the power of a san'angreal like Vora's Wand to compare it to. RJ for instance specified Graendal's was weak "at least as she reckons such things". It was enough to let her handle Moghedien + Cyndane.

It could well be that the Tower misjudges angreal because with the limited collection there's a huge gap between angreal and the very few san'angreal they own, and they think the gap between the two should be filled by "stronger angreal" when in fact it's san'angreal in the weaker range that they don't own. So they falsely believe they don't own very strong angreal. It could be that. Examples abound in the notes of "unreliable information" passed to us by Aes Sedai who have it wrong. We can pretty much consider as fact that they widely overestimated the strength of the AOlers/Forsaken, in part because the books about them are post-Breaking and already transform some facts into legend (one of those would be the "most powerful AS of the Age of Legends" bit.. The 13 were strong, but this referred to their power at the top of the Chosen hierarchy, not to their strength in the OP. Moghedien or Balthamel were hardly stellar channelers, unlike Aginor or Semirhage who shone in their domain. Another example would be Moiraine who believed Sammael might sense her from 5 miles away... which likely comes from a legend that arose from the fact Sammael loved his large radius of warning wards.. for both saidin/saidar...), and in part because as a result of those false beliefs it's become a convenient excuse for their loss of so many Talents and weaves to believe they're no longer strong enough for them. It made them give up on rediscovery/innovation.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:51 AM
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Cool stuff.

I've been out of the WoT loop for the past few weeks, so sorry if this has already come up, but:

Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?
It will hopefully be out next year. We have very little indication as to what will be in it, but there is more detail in the notes than I personally expected, which is a good sign for the Encyclopedia.
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Old 05-12-2014, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dom View Post
So far there's really no good evidence that would suggest dexterity in weaving could "multiply" anything. Nothing appears to be exponential or multiplied, in fact.

What we have suggests that dexterity counts a something like a talent. If we take a step (Jordan's preferred word for "level". Step=level) as being a finite quantity of saidar, then it always takes 3 or 6 steps (depending if we're right that men have 6 levels above women) more saidin to match the performance of a saidar weave. Saidar weaves are thus slightly more efficient. From various comments in the notes, it seems that gap could be constant, just like "a step" strongly appears to be a unit of measure, thus constant, and the scale fully linear. If we say one level = 1 unit of OP and a woman uses two units of saidar for a weave, it would take 2+6 (or 2+3) units of saidin to match her, not 2x6 (or 2x3).

But at this point it's still a bit speculative as info on male strength is very hard to come across. It may be in a single file that Terez doesn't have, maybe a kind of compendium of Asha'man similar to the Aes Sedai one.

So far Terez has found only the strengths of the living Forsaken by KOD, and they're mentioned only in that one file, nowhere else where the male Forsaken appear (while the women's strengths do show up in many files..). It may well be that RJ bothered with male strengths very late only, maybe as late as when Logain's group started working together.

That's really something RJ used mostly for women, and the evidence of this is everywhere. He probable ended up adding the Forsaken because mentions of strengths (by Alviarin, regarding Alivia etc.) were starting to appear.

There are note files by story line/book, the kind of summary you expect a writer to keep at hand when he wrote a story arc and didn't want to go into the main files to look up the basics. Lists of all players, with very short to more elaborate notes from past books, reminders, LOTS of elaborate descriptions of ALL the wardrobe possessed by everyone etc. In those, RJ virtually always included the strength of female channelers. But the strength of Asha'man, so far never. Not for Neald and Grady, not for Rand's Asha'man, there's not even one strength given in a BT story line file from circa WH to KOD. Even more telling: in those files RJ most often had reminders of previously mentioned strength comparisons, even for minor women (with reminders to disregard when they were not accurate for good reasons: Forsaken X was being arrogant, Aes Sedai X overlooked the strong wilders on purpose etc.) We have yet to see any equivalent for men, even though RJ did mention strength appraisals here and there for Flinn, Narishma etc. He didn't bother including them in his "writing files" as reminders. They were probably only in his main Asha'man files, since he rarely used the, in the books. I even wonder if he bothered distributing men "by the book" with the bell curve like the women or went more randomly since he would hardly mention their strengths.

So RJ wasn't lying when he said this was mostly for women, and mostly to determine social behavior, speak of potentials or draw comparisons. This also appears not to have played much role, if at all, in setting up OP action scenes.

For example there is an outline/plan for one of those (which virtually hasn't changed in the final book it appears in). Only female strengths are included in there. It's pretty obvious he didn't use at all the strength scale in "action scenes".

As for the men levels, I'm behind Terez's theory. I think 72 is definitely the # of "effective levels". If they are more, they "don't work", ie: the ability is genetically present, but the soul or its connection to the TS is too weak for the human brain to make use of the ability at all.

So I think personally that "female dexterity" is constant. Daigan's weaves would match a man's six steps above her, just like Lanfear matches Rand. I speculate from this that while levels 60 to 66 theorically exist for men, but for a man to be able to seize the source at all, the mark is six levels higher than a woman's. Therefore, while the weakest man and woman are equal in OP quantities (as RJ implied. he said "weakest man/woman are roughly the same), it is also true that the weakest woman in effect matches the weakest man. So the six last levels for men would be "ghost levels", and in effect there would be 66 levels for men as well.

At the moment I'm more interested by the linking rules, as it's getting very clear that there's either a mathematical or philosophic correlation between that and the strength scale. 66 levels for women, 6 higher levels for men on top. 72 is the largest circle and requires at least 6 men to 66 women. Now, why is it 13 women before a man must be included, and etc.? How does it work mathematically?

By the way, it also appears that Brandon was quite right with this answer:

I

There are even interesting connections that are beginning to appear between angreal, san'angreal and the strength scale.

This info isn't from the notes, but I think the strongest female angreal = level 1/12+ (made from a seed by a level 1/+12 woman) or if you prefer it boosts you by 66 steps, the strongest male angreal = ++1. The strongest female san'angreal could be 66 x level 1/12+ (made by the 66 level 1/+12 women in a circle of 72, with 6 men. Saidin would be used for the buffer, maybe?). I think the CK might exceed these limits, thus the requirement for AK, but that's even more speculative than the rest (the angreal bit is much less speculative, since we have a good approximation of the strength of Moiraine's in TOM - it makes her stronger than Romanda, thus over 55 levels, which is confirmed, with more accuracy - a precise level she reaches with it - in the notes).
Just to throw this out there Dom, the last time, and really only time, that Lanfear ever faced off with Rand was when Rand was still learning to use his powers, and WAY before he got his memories and abilities from when he was LTT. So to make that as a standard, may not be the best thing, plus with Rand's inability to kill women at the time also severely hampered him. Later on, at Maradon, when his abilities and memories are restored, he annhilates tens of thousands of trollocs in a short time with numerous and powerful weaves. On such a scale, that we only see a handful of other times. Lanfear, with a strong angreal, is wreaking destruction, but that destruction is limited to the docks. Rand used the fatman angreal (if I remember right) which is only supposed to be a very small boost to his powers.
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Old 05-12-2014, 03:55 AM
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He also used that angreal while fighting Lanfear.

So Rand not yet at full strength with a weak angreal and hampered by his convictions was a match for Lanfear at her strongest with a significant angreal (the one that Moiraine ends up with) while she is quite willing to do damage.
That suggests that Lanfear never really was a match for either LTT or Ishamael in a head to head confrontation. Of course, if she hadn't been too angry, then she could have used a bit more subtlety, which would have made strength less important and dexterity more relevant.
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Old 05-12-2014, 04:31 AM
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That suggests that Lanfear never really was a match for either LTT or Ishamael in a head to head confrontation.
There's no point debating that. We know she was as strong as them. She's the strongest woman in the list, they are the strongest men. Per RJ, the strongest woman and the strongest man are functionally equivalent.

As for the docks, we need to keep in mind Lanfear was toying with Rand. Yes, he was resisting LTT's suggestions on how to kill her, but she was also not working to kill him. She was sending weaves that would still him and weaves that gave him pain, while effortlessly fending off his rather stupid attempt to club her with Air. I doubt she was bringing her full strength to bear here.
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Old 05-12-2014, 06:33 AM
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OK I'm going to flip the scale because #1 being the most powerful is just plain confusing :P

It has always been my thinking in that there must be something significantly different in an Sa'Angreal and an Angreal for them to named and treated differently - otherwise why not just called them all Angreal.

its my thinking that: Angreal "add" power but are less effective at higher levels.

e.g. Fatman could be +20 power - but can only handle 65 power without melting.

So rand fighting Lanfear would at the time jump from a 60 to a 80 - but when he levelled up to max he could only push 65/72 at the end - a smaller boost up to 85 power.

And the bracelet was +40 but could only handle up to 40 power max without issue... so Lanfear (66) was also boosted to an "80" rather than 106.

This would also explain why both lanfear at the time and rand later on with the fat man seemed "less exhausted" as they were not maxing out their own personal power.

Pass the bracelet onto Moraine and she jumps from a 1 to 41 (higher than her original 35). Elayne will read the bracelet and find it jumps her from 35 (at the time) to 75 (slightly more than double).



Then Sa'Angreal are different. - I'm thinking they are the ones which multiply *but* you need a minimum amount of power to use them... e.g. Calander would be x3 but you need 50 to use it. CK you need at least 60 to use them but give x5 power.

Unfortunately this all fails with Vora's Wand; Mat's Healing and Nyneve managing "almost half" by herself vs Vora and Demandred's Sa'Angreal which is "more powerful than Callandor". whichever way you spin the numbers they do not match up...

*unless* you add in a 3rd rule - Sa'Angreal become more powerful the more power is put into them.

e.g.

push 40 into Vora's Wand - it does a x2
push 50 into Vora's Wand - it does a x3.5

you only need 30 power to use it (e.g. at the time only the most powerful Aes Sedai)

Demandred's Sa' Angreal you needed say 60 power to use

push 60 into Vora's Wand - it does a x3
push 80 into Vora's Wand - it does a x4

so if Mazrim Taim was a 65- he would be fighting with 195
and if Egwene was a 56 she would be fighting with a 196 and wins.


Of course this is all terribly confusing and at the end lets just put it down to artist licence and reinventing the wheel (pun intended) a various stages of the saga writing process.
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Old 05-12-2014, 07:00 AM
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OK I'm going to flip the scale because #1 being the most powerful is just plain confusing :P
As if flipping it is less confusing! Think of it as ranking rather than power level and it's not confusing at all...
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Old 05-12-2014, 07:12 AM
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As if flipping it is less confusing! Think of it as ranking rather than power level and it's not confusing at all...
Or compare it to stellar magnitudes, where a lower number also means a brighter star.
Or the original Celsius scale, which ran from 100 (freezing water) to 0 (zero, at the boiling point of water). Of course, using the latter in astronomy would be a bit awkward, as then all stellar temperatures would be negative.

Of course, T's idea (made somewhat more explicit by me, here) that the whole scheme is based on a reality show called Ranking The Sedai makes the most sense. Obviously Lanfear would've wanted to be number one in such a show.
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:22 AM
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on a pure ranking scale the reverse is fine. but I was trying to make some sense when using angreal and sa'angreal and I dislike in dealing with negatives in multiplication
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:41 AM
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Any indication when the encyclopedia will be out?

And does it seem like it will meet our (high) expectations?
There isn't much information available about it yet except for a brief description on the Waygate Foundation site:
Quote:
Though it is not expected to be released until at least 2014, it will include detailed entries on history, geography, weaponry, natural life such as plants, birds and animals, and character descriptions and backgrounds.
Of the above categories, I'm mostly just interested in history and character backgrounds, but hopefully there will also be other things of interest. I think they did confirm the OP strength list will be included.

Also, no word yet as to whether they will use the BWB defacer/illustrator again or get someone else to do the artwork, but my guess is that they'll go for Ariel Burgess who did the WoT playing cards.
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:25 AM
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Apparently the BWB artist signed a contract for so much money and was told so many drawings, but then they asked him to do like 5x more drawings without offering him any more money. RJ said that if he had known that at the time he would have offered the guy some money out of his own pocket.

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on a pure ranking scale the reverse is fine. but I was trying to make some sense when using angreal and sa'angreal and I dislike in dealing with negatives in multiplication
But negatives in multiplication are so much easier than negatives in addition and subtraction.

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That there are 72 levels and 72 is the maximum for a circle is interesting. Though we must remember that a circle of 72 can forcibly introduce one more person into the circle.
Wat?

(I am going to guess you're talking about involuntary rings, unless there is something in AMOL I forgot. In that case, it's a circle of max-13, and presumably they start with 12 or less.)
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Old 05-12-2014, 10:56 AM
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Wat?

(I am going to guess you're talking about involuntary rings, unless there is something in AMOL I forgot. In that case, it's a circle of max-13, and presumably they start with 12 or less.)
It is in the BWB, I think, that a circle of 72 could bring in one more without their consent.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:15 AM
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It is in the BWB, I think, that a circle of 72 could bring in one more without their consent.
Somehow, an actual quote might be a bit more compelling than your "I think", I think.
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Old 05-12-2014, 11:33 AM
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Somehow, an actual quote might be a bit more compelling than your "I think", I think.
And I'd provide it, except I don't have my copy with me right now...
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:10 PM
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From the BWB:

Quote:
Linking also has gender-based limitations due to the inherent differences of saidin and saidar. Men have the greater general strength in the Power, but women are essential for linking. Women can initiate a link; men cannot, though they can be part of it and even lead in certain circumstances.

Linking can be learned by any woman who can channel, and one who does not know how to form a link can be brought into one by someone who does know how. Leading a circle, however, depends on both strength and skill, which are not the same thing. The greater the combination of strength and skill, the larger the circle that a woman, or man, can lead.

The one who forms a link is not necessarily the one to lead it. Control can be passed voluntarily, and in the cases of some mixed-gender circles must be passed in order to weave flows.

A circle of up to thirteen female channelers can be linked together without the presence of a man. If a man is added to the link of thirteen women, they can then increase the link to include thirteen more women, or a total of twenty-six women and one man. Two men can take the circle to include thirty-four women. The next total is forty-five, with three men linked with forty-two women, then fifty-four (four men and fifty women), then sixty-three (five men and fifty-eight women), and finally seventy-two (six men and sixty-six women). This last, a circle of seventy-two, is the maximum possible link in terms of numbers.
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