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  #1  
Old 11-24-2015, 08:51 AM
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Default Turkey shoots down Russian warplane

holy fuck

Quote:
Putin calls Turkey downing warplane 'a stab in back'



Jane Onyanga-Omara, USA TODAY 8:36 a.m. EST November 24, 2015


Turkish military officials say the Su-24 attack aircraft ventured into their airspace, but Russia's defense ministry insists the plane stayed on the Syrian side of the border. The pilots were able to eject.

Russian President Vladimir Putin says the downing of a Russian warplane by Turkey will have "tragic consequences" for ties between the two countries.

Turkey said Tuesday that it shot down a Russian warplane after it ventured into Turkish airspace but Russia's defense ministry said the aircraft remained within Syria.

Putin called the attack "a stab in Russia’s back delivered by terrorist accomplices" and said it will not be tolerated, Russia's TASS news agency reported.

He said the plane, a Su-24 attack aircraft, was downed by an air-to-air missile launched from a Turkish F-16 fighter jet. The Russian aircraft posed not threat to Turkey, Putin said.

The incident is being investigated and comes amid tense relations between Ankara, Moscow and the West over the conflict in Syria. Russia and a U.S.-led coalition are bombing targets in the war-ravaged country. Turkey is a member of NATO. The defense alliance will hold an extraordinary meeting later Tuesday.

The Turkish military said that 10 warnings were issued in five minutes before a warplane of unknown nationality was shot down by two F-16 jets after breaching its airspace. The nation's state-run Anadolu news agency said the plane went down in Bayirbucak, northwestern Syria, near Turkey.

"A probe is in progress into the circumstances of the Russian plane’s crash. The Defense Ministry says the plane invariably stayed within Syrian airspace. Objective monitoring data confirm this," Russia's defense ministry said, according to TASS.


Turkey's private Dogan news agency said that witnesses said the warplane crashed over tents in a village and pilots landed with parachutes. Russia's Interfax agency said the pilots ejected, and what happened to them is under investigation, citing the defense ministry.

A video posted online purports to show armed rebels gathered around a bruised pilot lying on the ground. A voice says, “The 10th Division has captured a Russian pilot, God is greatest.” The allegiances of this armed group was not clear.

Jahed Ahmad, a spokesman for the 10th Brigade in the Coast rebel group, told the Associated Press that two Russian servicemembers tried to land in their parachutes in areas held by Syrian President Bashar Assad, but came under fire from group members. He said one of the pilots was shot and killed.

What happened to the second pilot wasn't immediately known.

Jordan's King Abdullah II offered condolences to Putin over the pilot's death, Interfax reported.

Russian fighter planes breached Turkish airspace twice in October.

Russia launched extensive attacks on Islamic State targets in Raqqa, the extremist group's headquarters in Syria, last week after Russian investigators concluded a homemade bomb brought down a Russian passenger plane in Egypt last month, killing all 224 aboard. The Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, claimed responsibility.

The U.S. government previously said most Russian strikes targeted moderate rebels, including some backed by the U.S., and that the real purpose of Russia's recent air campaign in Syria was not to defeat ISIL but to prop up Syria's president.
On the one hand, so close to the border, it was unfortunately only a matter of time for this sort of thing to happen, particularly seeing as Russian planes regularly fail to identify themselves and tend to ignore such arbitrary things as borders; add to that a nervous Turkey... Still, this could have MAJOR consequences. Turkey is a NATO country, after all
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:52 AM
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Hard to decide who to believe about what happened. I don't trust bith of them

I am not sure about the consequences.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Isabel View Post
Hard to decide who to believe about what happened. I don't trust bith of them

I am not sure about the consequences.
It's probably the vorlon's sword here but I'm gonna go with the Turks on this one. Not saying the Putin is lying, I fully believe some General has told him that of course their planes were in Syria. That said, what was likely reported and what actually happened are two entirely separate affairs.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:41 PM
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Stupid fucking thing to do.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:45 PM
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Still, this could have MAJOR consequences. Turkey is a NATO country, after all
NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance...Turkey seems to have instigated this by shooting down a Russian plane regardless of the air space violation.
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:00 PM
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I think the violation probably took place, but it wasn't a threat for turks.
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SomeOneElse View Post
I think the violation probably took place, but it wasn't a threat for turks.
US sources are stating that the plane violated Turkish airspace for "approximately 2-3 seconds" before being shot down.

So...um, if that's true, REALLY TURKEY???

Edit: to put that in perspective, if the plane was at top speed (unlikely but possible), it was going 1,028 MPH (1,508 feet per second) so if it entered the country's airspace at a right angle, it penetrated to a distance of approximately 3,016-4,524 feet within the country or less than 1 mile across a border worst case while engaged in combat operations in the neighboring country.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
US sources are stating that the plane violated Turkish airspace for "approximately 2-3 seconds" before being shot down.

So...um, if that's true, REALLY TURKEY???

Edit: to put that in perspective, if the plane was at top speed (unlikely but possible), it was going 1,028 MPH (1,508 feet per second) so if it entered the country's airspace at a right angle, it penetrated to a distance of approximately 3,016-4,524 feet within the country or less than 1 mile across a border worst case while engaged in combat operations in the neighboring country.
Wow That is ridiculous. I am sure Russia is constantly pushing the boundaries, literally and figuratively, but that doesn't justify this kind of action.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Isabel View Post
Hard to decide who to believe about what happened. I don't trust bith of them

I am not sure about the consequences.
At some point Turkey needs to know that its criminal behavior will have consequences. Even before this, Erdogan has cracked down on the freedom of the press (hardly an isolated case in that neighborhood, but certainly things have gotten much worse in Turkey on that front under his watch), he has curtailed the rights of women, he has brutally cracked down on his own Kurds (and his own govt was almost certainly complicit in the series of terrorist attacks that preceded both the cessation of the cease fire with them, and with the attack that occurred just days before the election), has preferred to attack the YPG (the Syrian Kurds, the only reliable force active in Syria - by contrast the Free Syrian Army that he supports, and has attempted to coerce us into doing likewise, is a euphemism for the Muslim Brotherhood) rather than ISIS in Syria, has pushed hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees into Europe (whether that is being done simply to export his own problem, or for more Machiavellian reasons is unclear, but hardly implausible) and now this. And this isn't just about the provocation of downing the plane...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173

Quote:
One of the two crew members who ejected from the downed plane was killed by fire from the ground, the Russian military said. The fate of the other is unclear.
A Russian soldier was killed when the helicopter he was on came under fire during a search and rescue mission, a spokesman added.
These last were by rebels, but Turkey's pet-rebels, the FSA. Turkey, at least in my opinion, is responsible. Shooting the plane down was stupid. Just scramble your own air force and shadow them. I personally find it appalling that Turkey is still in NATO.

Last edited by Kimon; 11-24-2015 at 05:16 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:26 PM
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I read somewhere a while back that if Russia continued to ignore Turkey's borders (like they had been with many other countries, including Turkey) that Turkey would respond.

Here's what I was talking about.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/1...110905695.html
http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/New...d-its-airspace

I'd say Turkey responded.
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
I read somewhere a while back that if Russia continued to ignore Turkey's borders (like they had been with many other countries, including Turkey) that Turkey would respond.

Here's what I was talking about.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/1...110905695.html
http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/New...d-its-airspace

I'd say Turkey responded.
Was what the Russians were doing provocative? Yes. Was what Turkey did justified? Keep in mind, the Russians pull this crap pretty regularly with us, with Britain, with Norway...

For instance...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...e-least-16-ti/

Quote:
Russian strategic nuclear bombers conducted at least 16 incursions into northwestern U.S. air defense identification zones over the past 10 days, an unusually sharp increase in aerial penetrations, according to U.S. defense officials.

The numerous flight encounters by Tu-95 Russian Bear H bombers prompted the scrambling of U.S. jet fighters on several occasions, and come amid heightened U.S.-Russia tensions over Ukraine. Also, during one bomber incursion near Alaska, a Russian intelligence-gathering jet was detected along with the bombers.
You notice, in none of these did we shoot down the Russian planes, because doing so would have been stupid.

Or how about this recent sub search off Scotland...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34896956

Mind you, they (the French and Canadians, actually, as the Brits currently lack maritime patrol aircraft) seemingly haven't found this sub, but neither, presumably, would they have tried to sink it had they. Since, dumb...

Or of Norway...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/wo...-the-west.html

There is a responsible, adult, way to handle this sort of nonsense. Now, if we had a hot-head twit (potentially any Republican...) this relatively meaningless sort of brinkmanship might escalate out of control, but luckily most of the NATO members have responsible leaders. Turkey unfortunately has a schmuck running the show. Which wouldn't be as much of a problem but for the fact that Russia also has a schmuck running its own show...
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Old 11-25-2015, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
I read somewhere a while back that if Russia continued to ignore Turkey's borders (like they had been with many other countries, including Turkey) that Turkey would respond.

Here's what I was talking about.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/1...110905695.html
http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/New...d-its-airspace

I'd say Turkey responded.
In addition to what Kimon said, most of the time Western leaders tend to underestimate how insane Putin is. This time Putin (or his advisors/military leaders) underestimated how twitchy Erdogan is.
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
There is a responsible, adult, way to handle this sort of nonsense. Now, if we had a hot-head twit (potentially any Republican...) this relatively meaningless sort of brinkmanship might escalate out of control, but luckily most of the NATO members have responsible leaders. Turkey unfortunately has a schmuck running the show. Which wouldn't be as much of a problem but for the fact that Russia also has a schmuck running its own show...
Then again, both sides knew of each other that they have belligerent schmucks as leaders. So the smart thing to do would have been to keep ample distance. Russia chose not to do so.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:41 AM
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Frankly, while I hate Erdogan, I have no real problem with this. Putin is an even bigger criminal, and knew what the consequences of further provocations of an autocratic leader of a divided country that happens to have NATO protection would be. Or should have. The fault for this is entirely Russia's. Horrific stupidity or criminal negligence has this effect. Maybe meeting someone as crazy as he is will finally make Putin think twice in the future.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:15 AM
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Seriously, the notion that Russia will take any kind of serious action in protest or retaliation is laughable. And the reasoning behind it would be the most ridiculous and absurd position ever held by a modern world power. Russia, of all countries, would have no reasonable right to complain of practically any action Turkey might have taken.

Was it stupid to shoot the plane? It wasn't smart, but I don't think you can reasonably call this stupid. Someone needed to respond to Putin. Might as well be the asshole we can disavow.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:24 AM
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That comic is good, but holy crap the circles are heavy-handed.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Seriously, the notion that Russia will take any kind of serious action in protest or retaliation is laughable.
As you might already know, we are going to deploy our S-400 anti-aircraft systems to Syria. Of course, they are aimed to be managed and controlled by our steff in Latakia, but who knows what can happen. So, if at some point these things are found somewhere in Lebanon or in Yaman or even Iran, will you still find it laughable, especially for american allies in that region?
Or, for example, if Russia orders some pro-assad forces (like Hezbollah) to completely slaughter these turkoman whom Erdogan is so concerned about?
I think you already got the idea. There are ways of revenge other than attending direct confrontation with NATO.
But, to be honest, I don't think Putin would dare to consider them.

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Old 11-25-2015, 09:20 AM
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Not to be a conspiracy theorist but...this incident almost guarantees that there won't be some sort of grand coalition coming together to take out ISIS (and coincidentally help out all the Kurds fighting ISIS in the region) so Turkey's "mistake" here pretty much ensures no outside interference in what they consider their own area of influence as well as their private little war of genocide against Kurdistan that they've been waging for decades along with the understanding they've had with ISIS from the start where they've been basically looking the other way for the last 18 months.

So um...sheer stupidity or calculating plan by Erdogan?
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Old 11-25-2015, 09:21 AM
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That comic is good, but holy crap the circles are heavy-handed.
They're a little on the large side, but it still fits with the style of the comic.
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Old 11-25-2015, 09:37 AM
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And all to coincide with the American Thanksgiving...otherwise known as Turkey Day.



...I'll get my (tinfoil) hat.
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