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  #1  
Old 12-09-2015, 08:29 AM
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Default Finland is trying out Basic Income

Finland is about start at 2 year study of what effects Basic Income will have on the population. For you that don't know; Basic income is a small wage for all citizens without any strings attached. It would swap out any unemployment benefits, sick leave and the like. Finland is considering anything between 400-1000 euros per month (800 euros have been discussed). Not enough to live large, but enough to perhaps do a few things:

1. Getting part-time or free-lance working people coverage that don't have it today.

2. Take away disincentives for working when other social benefits today might pay out more, or enough, that doesn't motivate to work at all.

3. Reduce bureaucracy. And hopefully it would actually cost less.

They hope to have as many as 100k people participating in the study. Netherlands have also recently said they are going to do a similar study, but not this large.

A fourth reason this is interesting to investigate is the groups of creatives and entrepreneurs. What happens when you unlock their time, unlock the necessity to work full days and able to seek out new opportunities.

A fifth I have been thinking on are the health benefits. Staying home from work when you are sick usually costs a bunch of money and endangers other people to get sick as well. Being able to stay at home a few days when you are sick or just when stuff gets piled up could help out a lot. Just working say 80% of full time (40 hour weeks fulltime) could help out a lot.

I am intrigued by the idea and will try and follow this closely. I am positive about basic income but it is a large overhaul of what is in place today and would have to be looked at so no new pitfalls gets introduced.

I am sure there are a wide variety of views on this issue here. Although basic income has gained wide approval all over the political spectrum recently.
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Last edited by Mort; 12-09-2015 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:55 AM
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What a bunch of socialists!!!
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Finland is about start at 2 year study of what effects Basic Income will have on the population. For you that don't know; Basic income is a small wage for all citizens without any strings attached. It would swap out any unemployment benefits, sick leave and the like. Finland is considering anything between 400-1000 euros per month (800 euros have been discussed). Not enough to live large, but enough to perhaps do a few things:

1. Getting part-time or free-lance working people coverage that don't have it today.

2. Take away disincentives for working when other social benefits today might pay out more, or enough, that doesn't motivate to work at all.

3. Reduce bureaucracy. And hopefully it would actually cost less.

They hope to have as many as 100k people participating in the study. Netherlands have also recently said they are going to do a similar study, but not this large.

A fourth reason this is interesting to investigate is the groups of creatives and entrepreneurs. What happens when you unlock their time, unlock the necessity to work full days and able to seek out new opportunities.

A fifth I have been thinking on are the health benefits. Staying home from work when you are sick usually costs a bunch of money and endangers other people to get sick as well. Being able to stay at home a few days when you are sick or just when stuff gets piled up could help out a lot. Just working say 80% of full time (40 hour weeks fulltime) could help out a lot.

I am intrigued by the idea and will try and follow this closely. I am positive about basic income but it is a large overhaul of what is in place today and would have to be looked at so no new pitfalls gets introduced.

I am sure there are a wide variety of views on this issue here. Although basic income has gained wide approval all over the political spectrum recently.

It will be interesting to see what happens and how much it costs and what it delivers.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:37 AM
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Ooooh- seems like there is a lot of potential with this. I hope it works out.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:46 AM
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I used to thing basic income was a bad idea, but the more I read, and the more I think about it, the better it sounds. At least for us here in Norway.

Basically it would give people more of a choice in what work to do, and more importantly how much.

With depression (the psychological one) and cases of burn-out on the rise, it would probably save both companies and the country a bunch of money if people could simply decide to work x% and still make a decent living. Leading to less sick days, and less long-term sick leaves (which are fully paid here anyway).

It could also reduce the size of our (humongous) public sector since you wouldn't need a whole bunch of people running around trying to figure out how much money your situation entitles you to, and how much of that money you'll have to pay back in taxes.

Of course it would cost a lot of money, but it would be almost 100% predictable, and with the (my assumptions since there's barely any data) reduction in sick leaves, bureaucracy and increased life quality I think the country as a whole would go better.

Of course. The biggest problem is finding the sweet spot where people don't get so much money everyone just quits their job, but also enough that it actually helps.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:53 AM
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In a post industrial, automated economy, we almost have to accept that there will be more bodies than jobs. This sort of baseline pay basically deals with that sort of scenario rather than demonizing those less fortunate.
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:21 PM
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In a post industrial, automated economy, we almost have to accept that there will be more bodies than jobs. This sort of baseline pay basically deals with that sort of scenario rather than demonizing those less fortunate.
Yeah. There's that too.
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Old 12-09-2015, 09:14 PM
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I have liked the idea of basic income for a long time now. If our old conservative crowd were hanging around I'm sure they'd say something about "why would anyone work if they don't have to?" which is the same thing they say about welfare benefits now. But most people just aren't happy living with basics only and they'll work to get a little more money for various luxuries and entertainments. And of course there are not enough jobs to go around anyway. Many existing jobs only exist because of social pressures to create jobs, and I personally can't wait until the day when, for example, all fast food ordering is automated. Yes, people who are motivated to make more money will always be paying for those with less motivation, but the money-motivated will always outnumber the people who are willing to live with just the basics, for whatever reason. Some would be slackers; others would be the type to use their free time to do something needful. Creatives and entrepreneurs, like you said. Independent researchers like myself.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:17 AM
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I have liked the idea of basic income for a long time now. If our old conservative crowd were hanging around I'm sure they'd say something about "why would anyone work if they don't have to?" which is the same thing they say about welfare benefits now. But most people just aren't happy living with basics only and they'll work to get a little more money for various luxuries and entertainments. And of course there are not enough jobs to go around anyway. Many existing jobs only exist because of social pressures to create jobs, and I personally can't wait until the day when, for example, all fast food ordering is automated. Yes, people who are motivated to make more money will always be paying for those with less motivation, but the money-motivated will always outnumber the people who are willing to live with just the basics, for whatever reason. Some would be slackers; others would be the type to use their free time to do something needful. Creatives and entrepreneurs, like you said. Independent researchers like myself.
or doing volounteer work. So far every time I've come in contact with volounteer organizations I've been so impressed - I mean, sea rescue in NL is 99,8% volounteer based. There are wonderful hospices where volounteers make the last days/weeks of a dying person as comfortable as can possibly be - a level that just cannot be reached in "conventional" healthcare.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:50 AM
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It's also not just about the number of jobs available, at least in the US. We also have a serious problem with the salaried workforce being abused, forced to work basically what should be two full-time jobs, 60-80 hours a week. Technically there's usually some semblance of "overtime" worked in, but usually it's meager, not nearly half what it would cost to hire someone else to take a load off.

Even in the first world, employers have too much power over their workers, which is not to say that they shouldn't have any. There has to be some kind of balance, and the current abuse trends are just counterproductive anyway. Stressed workers are not good workers. The literature on this subject is really growing (I say as a casual observer judging by its regular appearance in mainstream media). And an abundance of bad workers leads to ever more desperate measures, ever more disdain for the working class.
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Old 12-10-2015, 12:38 PM
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It's also not just about the number of jobs available, at least in the US. We also have a serious problem with the salaried workforce being abused, forced to work basically what should be two full-time jobs, 60-80 hours a week. Technically there's usually some semblance of "overtime" worked in, but usually it's meager, not nearly half what it would cost to hire someone else to take a load off.

Even in the first world, employers have too much power over their workers, which is not to say that they shouldn't have any. There has to be some kind of balance, and the current abuse trends are just counterproductive anyway. Stressed workers are not good workers. The literature on this subject is really growing (I say as a casual observer judging by its regular appearance in mainstream media). And an abundance of bad workers leads to ever more desperate measures, ever more disdain for the working class.
Lazy Libtards always wanting a handout. I guess Obummer's Hope and Change didn't work out, eh Libtard!!!
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Old 12-10-2015, 12:40 PM
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Lazy Libtards always wanting a handout. I guess Obummer's Hope and Change didn't work out, eh Libtard!!!
Are you a southern Canadian now??
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:12 PM
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:02 AM
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Today the Swizz are having a referendum on Basic Income, polling seems to lean towards a No though.

Because of the referendum, a lot of articles have been written on the subject. Different perspectives and attitudes, but at least the ones I've read have been largely positive.

A sample:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-guaran...can-1464969586

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articl...next-big-thing

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...-basic-income/
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Today the Swizz are having a referendum on Basic Income, polling seems to lean towards a No though.

Because of the referendum, a lot of articles have been written on the subject. Different perspectives and attitudes, but at least the ones I've read have been largely positive.

A sample:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-guaran...can-1464969586

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articl...next-big-thing

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...-basic-income/
Still not official yet, but sounds like overwhelmingly voted down.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

Quote:
Some 78% of voters opposed the plan, a GFS projection for Swiss TV suggested.
Sounds like part of the lack of support might be fear that if passed, that Switzerland would become a lodestone for refugees.

Quote:
There was little support among Swiss politicians for the idea and not a single parliamentary party has come out in favour, but the proposal gathered more than 100,000 signatures and was therefore put to the vote under the Swiss popular initiative system.
Quote:
But Luzi Stamm, who's a member of parliament for the right-wing Swiss People's Party, opposes the idea.
"Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he says.
"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."
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Old 06-05-2016, 02:48 PM
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People and nation states aren't ready yet perhaps
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Old 06-05-2016, 03:52 PM
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People and nation states aren't ready yet perhaps
Saudi Arabia has something somewhat similar. Albeit only for actual Saudis, not for the millions of metics (resident aliens). Almost the entire citizen population is "employed" directly by the govt, and much more lavishly than what would be guaranteed to all, citizen or metic, under these basic income proposals. Of course, the Saudis can do this because of oil.

Basic income in many ways is but a pragmatic extension of the basic idea of welfare, but there is an understandable psychological resistance to the concept of a welfare system that doesn't require the unemployed to be seeking employment. When those unemployed are the elderly, or retired, that is a completely different matter, but the young? The hesitancy is reasonable, it is unfortunately also tinged with racism and fears of mass immigration due to the refugee crisis. If basic income's supporters really wish to undertake a viable experiment into its efficacy, now is certainly not amenable timing.
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Old 06-05-2016, 04:34 PM
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I didn't see that when I was in Saudi Arabia from April 2004 to March 2006.

Yes, the Saudi nationals do get a lot higher salary than foreign workers in the same position (exception being European or US/Canada/NZ/Australian citizens, who were paid far higher than Saudis) but there were many unemployed. Government was pushing companies to employ citizens before they allowed work visas. My employer had several citizens on payroll, who only came to collect salary on the pay day.

Also, from heresy the minority Shia population are not allowed into government jobs. Similarly black Saudis, perhaps descendants of freed slaves, seemed to be mostly very poor.
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Old 06-07-2016, 01:17 PM
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To be honest I think it's way too similar to communism - based on the idea that people will kind of ignore the fact that they don't HAVE to work in order to get by.

I can see why some might find this more fair than simply helping those in need but to be honest I think it will breed a lot more resentment when people with giant incomes still get the basic income.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:39 PM
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To be honest I think it's way too similar to communism - based on the idea that people will kind of ignore the fact that they don't HAVE to work in order to get by.

I can see why some might find this more fair than simply helping those in need but to be honest I think it will breed a lot more resentment when people with giant incomes still get the basic income.
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Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
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