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  #1  
Old 01-10-2016, 08:49 PM
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Default Was Cologne the last straw?

I'm frankly surprised that what happened in Cologne, and elsewhere, on New Years hasn't been getting as much press here as the earlier terrorist attacks in Paris. And while Schengen was already disintegrating, and while the willingness to continue accepting refugees was long dissipating, what happened almost certainly has to be the end of both that policy of accepting refugees, and the end politically for Merkel.

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What has fuelled the sense of crisis is the suspicion - now widely held - that the German establishment is not telling the truth.
The German public-service broadcaster ZDF did not mention the incidents in Cologne in its broadcast until last Tuesday, four days after the attacks.
The broadcaster has now admitted it was a "clear misjudgement" and says that since then, it has been "over-whelmed with hate and anger".
In parts of social media the idea of a "lying press" has taken root.
Some German papers are quoting police sources saying they are under orders not to report crimes involving refugees.
There is also the question of coordination.

Quote:
Certainly there is much that remains to be explained. Was this a co-ordinated event and, if so, who was behind it?
The German justice minister believes it was organised, but for what purpose? Or was it just a gathering sparked by social media?
Am I really the only one who thinks that this smells of ISIS?

Here's the full article:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35261988
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Old 01-11-2016, 04:07 AM
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Frankly, I think that it was some local Arabic-Mafia group which saw an opportunity, combined with a bunch of opportunistic (possibly drunken) instant volunteers. Which, admittedly, is more ISIS-like than ISIS might care to admit.

The German authorities did make all sorts of mistakes, too, which made things worse still.
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  #3  
Old 01-11-2016, 07:19 AM
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If nothing else, the fact that the press didn't report on it in time confirmed quite a few ideas that the racist/borderline-racist communities have been throwing around.

So, good going PC!
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Old 01-11-2016, 05:16 PM
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Looks like all clemency has run dry at least for non-Syrian interlopers.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35286640

Quote:
Germany has been sending an increasing number of migrants back to Austria every day since the beginning of the month, Austrian police say.
Many had no valid documents, whilst others did not want to apply for asylum in Germany but in other countries, notably in Scandinavia, police said.
New Year's Eve attacks on women in Cologne, blamed on migrants, have put pressure on Chancellor Angela Merkel.
Most of those sent back to Austria are not Syrians, who usually get asylum.
Instead, they are migrants mostly from Afghanistan as well as Morocco and Algeria, Austrian police said.

"The daily number of migrants being turned back has risen from 60 in December to 200 since the start of the year," David Furtner, police spokesman in Upper Austria state, told AFP news agency.
Last week, Sweden, a favoured destination for many of the migrants, sought to stem the flow by imposing controls on travellers from Denmark.

Earlier, an official report said the men suspected of attacking women in central Cologne on New Year's Eve were "almost exclusively" from a migration background, mainly North African and Arab.
Nineteen individuals are currently under investigation by the state police in connection with the attacks, NRW's interior ministry says in a report (in German), none of them German nationals.
Those 19 suspects include 14 men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the suspects are asylum seekers, nine of whom arrived in Germany after September 2015.
The other nine are possibly in Germany illegally, the interior ministry says.
If most of the attackers really were Algerians and Moroccans, not Syrians, it does increase my suspicion of ISIS encouragement, if not planning. How better to further the fear of this influx of refugees than to coordinate the widespread sexual assault on women in various cities throughout Germany and Austria (this wasn't just Cologne, they just had the most attacks, perhaps because their police were the most incompetent), and to further the tension and hostility that fuels their cause? If they weren't behind this, they must be considering employing similar tactics now.
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Old 01-11-2016, 05:35 PM
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Wouldn't ISIS want Syrians viewed with suspicion as well? They also have greater access to Syrians. It doesn't sound like ISIS to me, tbh. It really does sound like organized crime.
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Old 01-11-2016, 05:57 PM
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Wouldn't ISIS want Syrians viewed with suspicion as well? They also have greater access to Syrians. It doesn't sound like ISIS to me, tbh. It really does sound like organized crime.
What, you mean like this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-than-500.html

Quote:
His remarks come amid a violent backlash against the migrant community in Germany after a gang of men reportedly assaulted a group of Pakistani and Syrian asylum seekers on Sunday night.
Quote:
Cologne's local newspaper Der Express reported that a group of thugs had planned a "manhunt" for asylum seekers.
And then there is the fact that both Denmark and Sweden have re-instituted border controls to stop the flow of refugees - effectively destroying the very idea of Schengen, one of the guiding principles of the EU. This clearly will turn a much larger segment of the population against the Syrian refugees, and increase tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe.

Heck the mayor of Cologne urged women to stay away from Muslim men after the attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35243482
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:13 PM
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The retaliation mob is just retarded. My point is the demographics of the attackers are so far from what we know or suspect ISIS to be, that it makes no sense for it to be ISIS. Also, no one actually in Europe seems to think it was ISIS. It sounds like it was primarily executed as a mass robbery, from the testimony from the victims. The assaults sound like crimes of opportunity.
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:29 PM
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My point is the demographics of the attackers are so far from what we know or suspect ISIS to be, that it makes no sense for it to be ISIS.
ISIS' reach is essentially wherever there are dissatisfied Sunni Muslims - the one sector where they do not have a presence is amongst Shia, hence not in Iran. That is why they have been an increasing problem not just in Iraq and Syria, but Afghanistan (where they have been fighting the Taliban, who refuse to swear allegiance to them), and across all of North Africa. The instability in Libya has made that one of the most fertile breeding grounds for them, but they have also been active in Tunisia (as seen in numerous attacks on western tourists, most notably at Sousse), in Egypt (especially in the Sinai, and also seen in that recent attack on the Russian airliner flying out of Sharm el Sheikh), but also in Algeria (feeding upon continued hostility between Algeria and France, both in Algeria itself, an old French colony, and amongst Algerians living in France), and in Morocco.

For instance:

http://www.ibtimes.com/after-paris-i...frican-2186368

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6736901.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ghanistan.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner
Also, no one actually in Europe seems to think it was ISIS. It sounds like it was primarily executed as a mass robbery, from the testimony from the victims. The assaults sound like crimes of opportunity.
I think this is perhaps what was behind the reports of police cover-ups, that the governments are resistant to admitting links between refugees, even when not Syrian, and ISIS, as the public will too often see the two as one and the same.

e.g.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35285086

Quote:
Police in the Swedish capital Stockholm have launched an internal investigation into accusations that the force covered up widespread sexual assaults by mostly migrant youths at a music festival.
In a case echoing recent attacks in Cologne, a group of men reportedly groped girls at the We Are Sthlm event.
Police ejected 200 people from the site in August but did not mention assaults in their reports to the press.
Sweden was the first country to offer permanent residence to Syrian refugees.
Quote:
According to Peter Agren, who led the police operation at the festival this summer, the controversy over welcoming refugees and migrants to the country may have contributed to a reluctance to publicise the issue.
"Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.
Mr Gyllander also conceded that the issue may have been a factor. He said: "These days, the level of discussion is very harsh, and it's very aggressive when it comes to discussing the matter of refugees and foreigners. I think that all of us are very careful how we express ourselves."
I could be wrong about this, but it seems plausible.

Last edited by Kimon; 01-11-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-11-2016, 07:38 PM
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I still don't think it's ISIS, but let's see what comes out.

Frankly, I'd rather it be ISIS than what I think it is. We already knew ISIS was full of monsters. But if the cultures these immigrants come from sanction these assaults in any way, even implicitly, helping the refugees will become substantially harder.

As for Schengen, it, along with the EU, was more or less doomed from the start. You can't have 27 distinct fiscal, immigration, and defense policies and expect anything resembling order to come of it.

ETA:
In fact, I keep thinking of the massive pedophile apparatus in Rotherham. That certainly wasn't ISIS, and the police covered it up.
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:49 PM
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I still don't think it's ISIS, but let's see what comes out.

Frankly, I'd rather it be ISIS than what I think it is. We already knew ISIS was full of monsters. But if the cultures these immigrants come from sanction these assaults in any way, even implicitly, helping the refugees will become substantially harder.
Societal baggage, vis-a-vis views on women definitely is part of the equation, but this still seems far too widespread and coordinated simply to be isolated misogynists thinking that western women have it coming. Could this simply be the subtle seeding of ideas, hints at how to treat western women by mullahs who perhaps are sympathetic to ISIS? Sure. But it strikes me as telling that these were not Syrians, even though numbers would seem to indicate that it should have been them. That strikes me as interlopers planted to sow strife. Though, admittedly, I may be giving them too much strategic credit, where there is perhaps nothing but mob misogyny.

Quote:
As for Schengen, it, along with the EU, was more or less doomed from the start. You can't have 27 distinct fiscal, immigration, and defense policies and expect anything resembling order to come of it.
It seemed to be working fairly well from 1995 until stressed, perhaps irreparably, by this recent crisis.
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Societal baggage, vis-a-vis views on women definitely is part of the equation, but this still seems far too widespread and coordinated simply to be isolated misogynists thinking that western women have it coming. Could this simply be the subtle seeding of ideas, hints at how to treat western women by mullahs who perhaps are sympathetic to ISIS? Sure. But it strikes me as telling that these were not Syrians, even though numbers would seem to indicate that it should have been them. That strikes me as interlopers planted to sow strife. Though, admittedly, I may be giving them too much strategic credit, where there is perhaps nothing but mob misogyny.
I'm just saying the conversation doesn't really change if Syrians were involved, which points to underutilized resources. The coordination does make me look twice, and twice more. But things simply don't add up. Again, I think of Rotherham, and the fact that ISIS was invoked right off the bat in their known operations.


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It seemed to be working fairly well from 1995 until stressed, perhaps irreparably, by this recent crisis.
Many things work before they're tested by fire.
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Old 01-12-2016, 02:39 AM
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some admittedly flippant and not entirely related remarks:

1) as of last year (?) the Dutch officially recognize homosexuality as grounds for seeking asylum. Whatever else one might think of gays, they tend to not assault women.

2) I had a very enlightening conversation a month or two ago with a leader of the Dutch Jewish community who was heading this... sort of an Oecumenical commune including all of the local Judaeo-Christian faiths to help approach the incoming migrants. I was quite surprised when he said that sometimes the religious, national and cultural differences within the Muslim communities can be quite... let's say vocal. For example, iirc, the Algerians and Moroccans DO NOT get along.

3) Now, this is easier said than done, but still. It's extremely important to not create immigrant slums. To find the migrants a permanent place to live as soon as possible and start training them for actual work. Most of them want to work, they want security and safety - after all, that's why they're fleeing their own countries. But in an environment such as the camps that are now set up... No privacy, no proper shelter or protection, no private property... crime, including crimes against the weakest groups (women, children, the infirm and elderly) is bound to arise.

4) I agree 100% with Rutte: The migrants DO NOT get to pick and choose where they want to settle. Not right now, anyways. Maybe in 5 or 10 years when the dust has settled, and life has (hopefully) returned to stability, but not now. I know this sounds a bit like the situation during/after WWII, where if you were a displaced person, you had to go where you were told to go, and of course this isn't really... nice, always. But some European countries are so overflooded they simply can't handle any more. While others have so far received 0 migrants simply because there have been no applications. You know what? it took months of negotiations to get to a European agreement of quotas for how much certain countries would accept, and most everyone was not happy with their numbers, so suck it up and go where you're told. So if it isn't a cushy welfare state like Sweden, Germany or UK, but instead you end up in a relatively poor country like Slovakia or Latvia or Estonia. It's still better than where you came from.

5) I've been nastily harassed by a foreigner in Holland. Except he was British. I was once almost pushed under a tram by some punk who was in a hurry and apparently felt the need to use his elbows, and when I dared to tell him this wasn't ok, I got sworn out in pungent Dutch. Not to take attention away from the need to educate the asylum seekers on the local customs, the locals themselves need to first take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror before they start pointing fingers.
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Old 01-12-2016, 04:06 AM
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I don't think many actual Syrians support ISIS, apart from those who are already a part of that group and thus wouldn't be good candidates for infiltrating refugee groups. Most of the hard core ISIS support comes from outside their region in the form of foreign volunteers. And many of those are young European Muslims of Moroccan and Turkish descent; precisely the group supposed to be involved in this. So it is possible that they were ISIS supporters who were asked to participate in an action in Europe before (or instead of) coming to Syria.
It would obviously benefit ISIS to make it more difficult for people to flee their grasp by increasing distrust of refugees, so apart from having yet another spectacular action there would also be some actual benefits for the group. Then again, those same benefits would also exist for Assad, though recruiting a large number of random helpers in Europe would be more difficult for him. Maybe his secret service managed it by pretending to be ISIS.
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:44 AM
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The reason for this isn't ISIS or mafia or whatever, the actual reason is Islam with its well-known disrespect for women. Of course some people will still say the same bullshit like don't associate the muslim society with few scumbags, but, since reports say that few hundreds or even thousands were involved in these acts all over the EU makes it very hard to believe.

Today I've seen a report about two demonstrations in Leipzig, one of which is organized by neo-nazis (e.g. LEGIDA/PEGIDA) and the other one was aimed to support continuation of acceptance policy. I wonder how people could be so (the word stupid couldn't even express it), what are they waiting for? How many women should be raped for them to realize these guys aren't innocent refugees?

Just learn how much does it take to travel from Syria or Africa to Europe and you'll see they couldn't be poor people trying to escape ISIS or Assad or anything else.

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Old 01-12-2016, 07:54 AM
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It's not Islam, it is the culture in many Islamic countries. Those are related, of course, but not the same. Just as the Holocaust wasn't just Christianity, even though it was something that happened in Christian countries.

It is rather ignorant to think that refugees have to be poor. People in Syria weren't nearly as poor as people in Somalia or Ethiopia or such are; Syrians in general do have enough resources to pay for transport. But the fact that they're willing to burn up their life savings simply to get away shows that they're pretty desperate.
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Old 01-12-2016, 08:34 AM
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The reason for this isn't ISIS or mafia or whatever, the actual reason is Islam with its well-known disrespect for women. Of course some people will still say the same bullshit like don't associate the muslim society with few scumbags, but, since reports say that few hundreds or even thousands were involved in these acts all over the EU makes it very hard to believe.
Oh... so since a few thousand white christians are racist pricks, Christianity is "well known for racism", correct? A few thousand Hindu's hate Muslims in India, so obviously Hinduism is well known for anti-Muslim sentiments.

As Gonzo said, there's a lot of conflation of culture and religion going on here.
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Old 01-12-2016, 09:23 AM
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It's not Islam, it is the culture in many Islamic countries. Those are related, of course, but not the same. Just as the Holocaust wasn't just Christianity, even though it was something that happened in Christian countries.
Not that, since Holocaust is not directly inspired by Christianity and it doesn't happen in every christian country.
At the same time, this approach to women (at least those whos clothes don't comply with islamic traditions) has its source in Quran and hence is directly related to Islam

Quote:
It is rather ignorant to think that refugees have to be poor. People in Syria weren't nearly as poor as people in Somalia or Ethiopia or such are; Syrians in general do have enough resources to pay for transport.
This is off-topic, but after reading this I have a question. If syrians had so great standard of living that they could afford paying several thousand to transfer themselves to a better place, maybe Assad's regime wasn't so bad?
Syrians have their own country where they can stay since some of its part aren't covered by the war.

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Oh... so since a few thousand white christians are racist pricks, Christianity is "well known for racism", correct? A few thousand Hindu's hate Muslims in India, so obviously Hinduism is well known for anti-Muslim sentiments.
Bible doesn't directly call for racism. Religion itself is possibly the greatest source of conflicts, but here we're talking about the particular case in Cologne and several other european cities, not about religions in general.
In fact, ISIS isn't so "non-islamic" and "against Islam" as muslims like to publicly admit. In fact, this is a true sunni Islamic state and no one (incl. me) even has an idea what to do with this little fact. It is so easy to say that they are just a group of gangsters who have nothing to do with Islam and that terrorism is not connected with it, but this will prevent everyone from finding any effective solution. You cannot solve a problem unless you face it.
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As Gonzo said, there's a lot of conflation of culture and religion going on here.
The current culture (by culture here I rather mean people's value system, not their art etc) in most islamic countries is formed and driven by the religion which is not the case with most christian countries of the west (Europe, USA).
Back to the problem of racism, if you consider most western countries before XX century (in fact be4 the WW2) you will find that most of them had racist ideology (colonialism was its direct consequence) which allowed them to slaughter and enslave people based on their skin color or religion and it started to change the moment Christianity started going down in these countries. So your rather sorcastic sentence about Christianity causing racism has a point.

Last edited by SomeOneElse; 01-12-2016 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:05 AM
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Not that, since Holocaust is not directly inspired by Christianity and it doesn't happen in every christian country.
At the same time, this approach to women (at least those whos clothes don't comply with islamic traditions) has its source in Quran and hence is directly related to Islam
Citation needed.
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed". Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?

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This is off-topic, but after reading this I have a question. If syrians had so great standard of living that they could afford paying several thousand to transfer themselves to a better place, maybe Assad's regime wasn't so bad?
It wasn't as bad as, say, the American South was towards black slaves. However, it wasn't much better than the Soviet Union during some of its bad episodes, and it is worse now.

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Syrians have their own country where they can stay since some of its part aren't covered by the war.
True, as far as it goes. That's not very far, though. The fighting is in the areas where humans can live, while the desert where people would die rapidly are generally peaceful.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:55 AM
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From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed". Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?
Good thing there are no parts of the New Testament (other than every single part written (or attributed at least) by Paul that have similar prohibitions and restrictions on women's dress, behavior, speaking in church, etc etc etc.

Nothing at all there...AT ALL.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:09 AM
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Citation needed.
From what I've read about it, the Quran isn't much of a fashion magazine. Instead, those clothing rules come mainly from the interpretation given after the death of Mohammed by one of his companions. If that is true, then rather than based on the Quran, they are based on one person's bigotry. Which is why I said "citation needed".
Does this change anything?
Quran, unless you believe it is originating from God, is a book written by some one (Mohammad) and, most likely, altered by many since VII century. But more than a billion of muslims see it as God's guidance which they must follow.

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Do you have the relevant Quranic quotes to prove me wrong here?
No, I am not the one who studies and interprets Quran (sorry I forgot how this person is named but people spend their whole life to be able to always provide the relevant quote) and I am not trying to pretend to be, but again, existence of such a quote would change nothing. Islam is what its followers believe now, at least in context of our discussion, not something written 1400+ years ago.

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However, it wasn't much better than the Soviet Union during some of its bad episodes, and it is worse now.
It is not even comparable. In Soviet Union there was almost no freedom of speech, no democracy, no freedom. And the current situation is a result of the religious war which wasn't started by Assad.

Last edited by SomeOneElse; 01-12-2016 at 11:11 AM.
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