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arwins gap, what really happened?
by Rand-althor: 2003-08-19 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
"Battle surrounded him, or the tail end of Battle. Armored men on armored horses, shining steel dusty now, slashed and stabbed at snarling Trollocs wielding spiked axes and scythe-like swords. Some men fought afoot, their horses down, and barded horses galloped through the fight with empty saddles. Fades moved among them all, night-black cloaks hanging still however their dark mounts galloped, and wherever their light-eating swords swung, men died. Sound beat at Rand, beat at him and bounced from the strangeness that had him by the throat. The clash of steel against steel, the panting and grunting of men and Trollocs striving, the screams of men and Trollocs dying. Over the din, banners waved in dust-filled air. The Black Hawk of Fal Dara, the White Hart of Shienar, others. And Trolloc banners. In just the little space around him he saw the horned skull of the Dha'vol, the blood-red trident of the Ko'bal, the iron fist of the Dhai'mon."
I believe that Aginor transported Rand. Aginor was being killed, and obviously had orders to take Rand down. Therefore it is likely that as he was being burned to ashes, he got his final revenge, by sending Rand into the middle of a battle where humanity was certian to loose.
This is based on something I noticed while reading tEotW again. When Rand confronts Ishy, he talks about escaping his traps, and destroying his army. At this time, Ishy's eyes flare up, and Rand thinks he hears a curse directed at Aginor, then Ishy makes a comment about other armies being raised, as other things.
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
"Ba'alzamon's eyes roared like two furnaces. His lips did not move, but Rand thought he heard a curse screamed at Aginor. Then the fires died, and that ordinary human face smiled at him in a way that chilled even through the warmth of the Light."
Because of his curse at Aginor, he was angry with him. Now the one thing mentioned before and after Ishy looses control is about his army. I believe Aginor transported Rand to Tarwins gap, in an attempt to kill him, and it backfired by destroying Ishy's army.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-26
Okay, I will admit that Ishy was probably pissed that Rand had destroyed that army, but I think the idea that Aginor sent Rand is unsupported. Rand was connected to the Eye of the World, and I would suggest that his connection to the Eye had more to do with his sudden transportation than Aginor. Aginor dies and then the Eye takes him to the battle, and then it takes him to Ishamael; that is my theory. Aginor is in his death throes, burning himself out by attempting to pull more one power than Rand, so I don't know why he would suddenly try to use it to transport Rand, when his goal is to overcome Rand.
spearmaiden: 2003-08-26
This is a good find. I'm not sure if I agree that Aginor transported Rand or not, but I hadn't caught the "curse screamed at Aginor" before.
What was Ishy mad at Aginor for, if it wasn't transporting Rand? Or maybe you're right, and it was. Very interesting.
Dorindha: 2003-08-26
We know that, at least until the eye was drained, it could be found by those who needed it. Maybe here, since Rand was connected to the Eye, he was transported to the place where he, and the Eye's power, were needed - to defeat the army at Tarwin's Gap.
I would then suggest that Ishamael was mad becase Aginor had not succeeded in stopping Rand from getting access to the pure saidin in the Eye.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-26
One thing that has always bothered me about that scene at the eye of the world is that the motivations are all wrong for the Forsaken.
For instance, will somebody PLEASE tell me why the eye was so important to Aginor? Remember, this is a guy protected from the taint by his ties to the DO. The saidin in the Eye is no different that saidin he could channel normally. So why does he try to keep it all for himself?
And I don't buy that his goal was simply to drain the eye to get at the Horn or at the Seal. He was replacing his flesh with the saidin, and was specifically jealous that Rand would take *any* of it. So, if his goal was to simply drain the Eye of Saidin, why would he care what Rand channeled, since that would empty the Eye all the quicker?
I can understand the importance of pure saidin available for the DR, and how that pure saidn would have protected the cuendillar seal... but there's no reason that Aginor should be SOOOOOOOOOO protectively jealous of it.
That whole scene just screams to me that RJ was setting up a false ending because he didn't know if the book was going to sell and he didn't know if he was going to have the opportunity to write the second. Even now, if I try to get somebody to start the series, I get them tEotW and tGH. I tell them that they just need to read through the ending of the first book and into the second to understand the scope of the series.
But, back on point, what the hell is going on with the forsaken at the eye?
spearmaiden: 2003-08-27
quote:
For instance, will somebody PLEASE tell me why the eye was so important to Aginor? Remember, this is a guy protected from the taint by his ties to the DO. The saidin in the Eye is no different that saidin he could channel normally. So why does he try to keep it all for himself?
Rubbernilly, that is a very good question. I have been confused by that scene since the first time I read it. It took me until about my fourth reread before I even had a clue what happened there. Which I guess makes sense, because Rand didn't have a clue what happened there, either. But I definitely agree with you, it was written that way because RJ didn't know if he'd be able to write any followup books.
Anyway, I've been puzzling over all the references in TEoTW to the DO wanting to blind the Eye, and even 10 books into the series, that still doesn't make sense to me. All I can think is that maybe there was a Dark Prophecy that if the DO was able to keep Rand from touching the Eye, maybe he could win?
Trying to look back at what the Eye did for Rand, it seems that aside from hiding the horn and banner, it also did serve one other purpose:
I think it drastically sped up Rand's channeling development. After TEoTW, when Rand is first trying to channel, he tries to think of what it felt like at the Eye. Maybe without the Eye, Rand would have stayed like Nynaeve and many other wilders -- not knowing what channeling felt like and really not knowing what it was supposed to feel like when trying to touch it.
Ooh, I just had a thought. Maybe without the Eye, and the clear lesson it gave Rand to what channeling felt like, Rand would have developped a block. Seems entirely likely, since many if not most wilders do have a block.
So I guess the most plausible explanation I can come up with is that Rand's exposure to the Eye drastically helped him later as he struggled to learn how to channel, and possibly also prevented him from building up a block as many wilders do. So Aginor's goal then would be to use up the Eye instead so that Rand would be left fumbling more to control his channeling, and would have a definite disadvantage compared to the DOs minions.
Still doens't explain how Rand got snatched away to Tarwin's Gap, though.
Callandor: 2003-08-27
**But I definitely agree with you, it was written that way because RJ didn't know if he'd be able to write any followup books.**
One word: Bull.
RJ had a deal for a multi-volume series, and if you say that came after TEOTW, then why, oh why, are there viewings that arent completed till ACOS, and some that aren't even completed after CoT?!
Maybe Aginor just wanted to feel saidin, without the need of the DO's cords filtering off the taint.
rubbernilly: 2003-08-27
callandor -
you say: bull
and I say: poppycock on your bull.
I am not disputing the fact that he might have had a multi-book contract before tEotW (he was an established author before that). However, he thought at the beginning that he could complete the series in 3 books. So there's no weight to your claim that viewings in tEotW aren't completed until aCoS, since RJ obviously intended, at least in the beginning, that what was covered in aCoS would have been covered inside of 3 books. There is no indication of a long range plan in place from the beginning here.
Now, even though there was a book deal in place doesn't mean that the books would have been guaranteed. Do you think that Tor would have published tGH if tEotW had flopped? Eh... no. So for whatever reason, either from pressure from Tor's uncertainties or from RJ's own, the end of tEotW is a false ending meant to put a cap on the story if the series were to be a "series" of only one book.
As for the explanation of what happened at the Eye, I tend to agree that the best explanation of the events seems to be that Rand's early channeling experience needed to be free of the taint for whatever reason - either because learning to channel with the taint would have hampered Rand or because the early efforts at channeling tended to be when the taint had the worst effects.
But, even then, Rand had channeled 3 or 4 times by this point, hadn't he? The more Rand channels before the scene at the Eye, the less validity that argument has. I think RJ has a LOT of explaining to do.
You know, this is the sort of information that Moiraine could share if and when she returns. Do I think that's going to happen? Nope. I think RJ thinks he explained it as well as he needs to.
juitzhead: 2003-08-28
it is an interesting point as to why Aginor did not want Rand to wield the eye.
I like the possibility that you have put forward spearmaiden but i think that he need pure saidin to heal himself and restore his body.
"The rope pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself, a man harder than the Warder, more deadly than the Blight. - TEOTW"
although this is by no means conclusive, i think it is a possibility, although Aginor does mention the DO giving him and Balthamel new flesh when he is freed. Perhaps they could not wait?
Further, I dont think male's get a block. Both of the ones we have seen, Logain and Taim, have not developed blocks, and Logain has not been taught. (cant say the same for Taim).
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-28
Well... if you look at the EotW it is really different than most of the other books. There are alot of elements that RJ has introduced in that book that i think he later had second thoughts on and changed.
1. Mydraal- Mydraal are supposed to be bad @$$ shadowspawn who can travel by Shadow and are equal to any great swordsmen. Look at them later in the series...
2. Forsaken- i beleive it quite possible that RJ hadn't yet established the 'DO grants you untainted saidin' rule yet, so Aginor needed to channel pure saidin. If you look at the way the forsaken function in this book and then how they function in the other books, youll see that it is drastically different.
3. Aes Sedai- in the first book Aes Sedai are people to be revered by all. They never seem to screw up. Then you read the rest of the series...
Just afew things i noticed i know im forgetting some...
spearmaiden: 2003-08-28
Callandor, you're right that he had a 3 book contract and that loose ends from the EoTW don't get tied up until WAY later in the series.
But, EoTW really did seem to be written as a stand-alone-able book, just in case. It's written to make you think that Rand really did fight the DO in the end and beat him, until you learn later that Ba'alzamon isn't really the DO at all. Yes, there are a lot of questions left over that need answered in later books, but it definitely feels like a book that could be read and then put down with a complete kind of feeling. The series doesn't become really addictive until the second book (don't get me wrong, I was hooked within 20 pages of EoTW, but to the book, not the series). The second book is when RJ makes it very clear that there are a lot of questions to be answered and there is a lot of action yet to come. The tone is definitely different from there on.
Callandor: 2003-08-28
**So there's no weight to your claim that viewings in tEotW aren't completed until aCoS, since RJ obviously intended, at least in the beginning, that what was covered in aCoS would have been covered inside of 3 books. There is no indication of a long range plan in place from the beginning here.**
Here's where I have to say bullcrap again. From the sheer number of unanswered questions in the first book, it was almost a certainty that there would be more books. YOu can't just say that another man juggling fire for Thom and the White Tower; an eye on a balance scale, a horn, and a laughing face for Mat; a broken crown, trees flowering all around Perrin; lights going into the darkness for everyone; a sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, him pouring water on sand, three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, a bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood for Rand; and not to mention the little thing of a a 3000+ year old banner, the Horn of Valere!, and one of seven of the seals that hold back the DO breaking... but there is NO indication this is a long series? Well forgive me for being cruel, but unless a person is as thick as a brick, they should jump to the conclusion that there will be more books.
Yes, it does have an ending of sort of completness, but again there are WAY too many loose ends for it to just drop off there. And, there is also the same kind of completness after TDR; it's more of a what now feeling to me.
Vaughn882: 2003-08-28
I didn't bother reading all the replies, I don't have much time. The other method of traveling is TP traveling, I did a theory on it a few monnths ago called "Another form of traveling?"
Wasnt Aginor dead before rand left the eye? I could swear he was, or either that just losing control and putting all efforts to seize the eye, i doubt he could have sent rand away, that was Ishy
rubbernilly: 2003-08-29
Callandor -
none of those foreshadowings/images/prophecies that you mention establish a literary mandate that there must, by needs, be a second book. The only thing that does that is the success of the book.
None of that unfinished business in the first book seems as important as Rand defeating the DO (or what we think is the DO).
And I submit that the coming-to-a-close feeling that you point to in tDR is due only to the fact that finally Ishy dies and we *know* that Rand is the DR. The important difference between this and the first book is that by tDR, we have a handful of books to look back on to know that unfinished images/prophecies/plans will probably be finished in future books. We have precedent for that as there are already books in the series. More importantly, Tor already has money in their pocket and they know they've booked a winner; they are sure to support more books.
With the first book, we have no previous books in the series, obviously, and that makes all the difference. Specifically, Tor having no money would make all the difference.
It was only after the book surged in popularity - guaranteeing the life of the series - that RJ stretched out his style and world to what we have through book 10.
I'll see your bullcrap and raise you another poppycock. :)
Callandor: 2003-08-30
The Horn of Valere seems to be a big thing that needs to be done, and look it that, it is done in the next book.
Anubis: 2003-08-30
according to robert jordan he wrote... or is writing the series like this. he has a vision of how it will all play out. its just a matter of getting there. so the visions would point to much later things that rj had planned. so robert jordan was expecting to make more books. but you are right in saying that if the first had been a fop then it would have ended the series...
Anubis: 2003-08-30
oh, and in response to the actual theory... rand is in the eye of the world, a place that appears where it is needed most. so it would be reasonable to blame the eye... well not the eye, but the green mans home thingy, for transporting rand to tarwins gap i spose.
Elder Haman: 2003-08-31
Lots of interesting replies... but I think all of you are wrong.
The most important point is that the reason things are so confusing is because Rand is confused and doesn't really understand what he is doing.
I think Rand (or Lews Therin!) transported himself to Tarwin's gap using the method of traveling via The World of Dreams. Just as Rand's Lews-Therin-alter-ego (I'm a one souler) has been helping him to channel, it did the same here, but Rand didn't really know what was going on. I think alot of other important Q's have been raise though... I feel a Theory coming on! I'll call it "Why the Eye" and I'll cover both why the Eye was so important, why Aginor coveted it, and why Ishmael cursed Aginor's name- and it's for reason completely oppisite those stated above.
Callandor: 2003-08-31
**I think Rand (or Lews Therin!) transported himself to Tarwin's gap using the method of traveling via The World of Dreams.**
No, Rand didn't Skim to Tarwin's Gap. He was one place (the Eye) and then the other (Tarwin's Gap). And if you say the distance is too short for any type of mention by Skimming, go back to TFOH when Rand Skims to his rooms and his platform barly moves before stopping, but it is mentioned even for that small distance.
However, Rand seems to Skim to Ishamael AFTER the battle of Tarwin's Gap. After Rand pounds the ground and destroys a lot of Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap, IIRC (cause I'm out of searches till tomorrow!), then the Voice talks to him and tells him the battle isn't here, and then stairs appear and he climbs them through darkness to the same wooden door of his dreams with Ishy... and Ishamael awaits behind. Sounds like Skimming but I'll go searching tomorrow to make sure.
Vaughn882: 2003-08-31
To travel using TAR u must create a gateway to TAR. Rand didnt use a gateway t oget to tarwin's gap, he just teleported there, which is traveling using the TP, which Rand cant doesnt wont use, so obviously someone else sent him there.
Anubis: 2003-08-31
i eagerly await your theory. always good to hear somthing new. tho the lews therin having that much controll... i wonder if robert jordan ever played xenogears... oh holy crud i just realized how well that fits...
Callandor: 2003-09-01
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions
From the first he knew it was a dream, one of those dreams that was not entirely dream. He stood staring at the wooden door, its surface dark and cracked and rough with splinters. The air was cold and dank, thick with the smell of decay. In the distance water dripped, the splashes hollow echoes down stone corridors.**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
Darkness surrounded him, the utter blackness of total nothing. The steps were still there, hanging in the black, under his feet and ahead. When he looked back, those behind were gone, faded away to nothing, into the nothingness around him. But the cord was yet there, stretching behind him, the glowing line dwindling and vanishing into the distance. It was not so thick as before, but it still pulsed, pumping strength into him, pumping life, filling him with the Light. He climbed.**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
It seemed forever that he climbed. Forever, and minutes. Time stood still in nothingness. Time ran faster. He climbed until suddenly a door stood before him, its surface rough and splintered and old, a door well remembered. He touched it, and it burst to fragments. While they still fell, he stepped through, bits of shattered wood falling from his shoulders.**
Compare this to our first confirmed Skimming.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean
Darkness surrounded him once the door vanished, blackness stretching in all directions, yet he could see. There was no sensation of heat or cold, even wet as he was; no sensation at all. Only existence. Plain gray stone steps rose in front of him, each step hanging unsupported, arching out until they dwindled from sight. He had seen these before, or their like; somehow he knew they would take him where he had to go. He ran up the impossible stairs, and as his boot left each one behind with its damp footprint, it faded away, vanished. Only steps ahead waited, only those taking him where-he had to go. That was as it had been before, too.**
The fact that RAND remembers the same type of Skimming, proves the fact that Rand (or LTT could've) went to Ishy and not having been taken there.
Searches are great! :)
Rand-althor: 2003-09-02
A few things.
1) If the eye, and green man's place, etc tranported him there, why did they not appear as well? Along with Nyn, Moir, Lan, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene.
2) Rand clearly uses some form or another of travelling (most likely skimming) to get to Ishy, im talking about the tranportation to Tarwins Gap.
3) I think Aginor wanted the eye on orders from the dark one. When they get to the eye, moiraine says something about it having the power to reseal the Dark one, or blow his prison open.
SDog: 2003-09-03
Callandor, I think you're mistaken here. Yes, it looks like Rand Skimmed to Ishy after appearing at Tarwin's Gap. However, it also strongly appears that Rand used the "need"-based TAR method of traveling to reach the Gap.
Look at the descriptions of the Eye, versus the descriptions of the "need" traveling that happens later. I support the theories suggesting that the Eye was indeed part of Tel'aran'rhiod, and that Rand's "need" to be at the Gap transported him there.
Traveling via TAR and Skimming are not at all the same thing.
Callandor: 2003-09-03
**Callandor, I think you're mistaken here. Yes, it looks like Rand Skimmed to Ishy after appearing at Tarwin's Gap. However, it also strongly appears that Rand used the "need"-based TAR method of traveling to reach the Gap.**
Again, I must repeat this: Rand Skimmed AFTER, not before (IE: He didn't Skimm to get to Tarwin's Gap), the battle at Tarwin's Gap.
Lots of possiblities on how he GOT to Tarwin's Gap (need is by far the most likely), but it was not Skimming that he used to get to Tarwin's Gap. I have been saying that Rand Skimmed to get to ISHAMAEL, which was AFTER the battle at Tarwin's Gap.
brigitta: 2004-01-09
OK, so this has kinda bugged me for a while now. in the prologue of EoTW Ishy just appeares. he kind of shimmers into being, maybe that's the second kind of Traveling? If so, does it need TP to perform or does OP qualify?
Khaos: 2004-01-09
Just chiming in that I find it extremely unlikely that the confusing nature of the end of the TEOTW was due to RJ giving the book a completeness in case the others were not published. As a general fantasy reader it is quite clear that the majority of works in the field are member books of series and off the top of my head I can't think of any set I began to read but was never able to finish because the rest of the series was never published. TEOTW was always Book 1 of the Wheel of Time and publishers generally realise thats its possible that a book may not be successful until after its follow up novels have also been released and people can get a better idea of the big picture, I think RJ would have been more than reasonably confident that he would have at least 3 books to complete the Wheel of Time when he started.
Now if someone were to suggest that its possible RJ was encouraged by his publisher to spin out the series into more books, that I could buy into. I get the impression from the pace of the books that he may have been aiming for a 9 book finish a trilogy of trilogies so to speak. And up until TFOH the series is on course for this. Ishamael, Be'Lal, Belthamel, Aginor, Rahvin, Asmodean and Lanfear had all fallen and Moghedien was in custody. That would have left only 5 Forsaken and the DO for 4 books. But once LOC starts we begin to get recycled Forsaken fleshing out the numbers and Moghedien freed. Plus a plethora of other new characters. In the five books since TFOH only 2 Forsaken have been taken out.
Elder Haman: 2004-01-09
If Rand use The World of Dreams to travel the Gap he indeed would have to make gateway... but it's a gateway that doesn't look like a gateway, only channelers can see it because it connects a point in the real world with it's exact parallel. Thus it looks like a doorway that doesn't go anywhere, but it actually connects Tel'ariod with the real world.
Anubis: 2004-01-09
i always thought this was pretty obvious. Ishmael was in the world of dreams in the flesh. When he steped out the background was the exact same and so it just appeared to be shimmering.
Callandor: 2004-01-09
**OK, so this has kinda bugged me for a while now. in the prologue of EoTW Ishy just appeares. he kind of shimmers into being, maybe that's the second kind of Traveling? If so, does it need TP to perform or does OP qualify?**
Yes, Ishy Traveled to LTT in the Prolouge via the TP.
brigitta: 2004-01-11
Thanks, Callandor. I had thought about the Dream World idea, but how do you explain Rand using that? he wasn't dreaming exactly when he entered TAR... now, I know it's more than possible to enter TAR in flesh but how do you explain that Rand defeated Ba'alzamon this easily when Ba'alzamon could have used one of the little TAR tricks? and furthermore, how did he know how to do what he did? OK, the "heroic weaves" theory explains that, but still it's confusing. I could understand one "Heroic weave", or even 2 being "invented" at once, but Rand handled very much more...
Elder Haman: 2004-01-11
Maybe Ishmael wasn't in The World of Dreams. After all Rand did skim there. Maybe Ishmael was near Shaoul Gul- doesn't Moghedien say that both places are similar in appearance?
Callandor: 2004-01-11
**Thanks, Callandor. I had thought about the Dream World idea, but how do you explain Rand using that? he wasn't dreaming exactly when he entered TAR... now, I know it's more than possible to enter TAR in flesh but how do you explain that Rand defeated Ba'alzamon this easily when Ba'alzamon could have used one of the little TAR tricks? and furthermore, how did he know how to do what he did? OK, the "heroic weaves" theory explains that, but still it's confusing. I could understand one "Heroic weave", or even 2 being "invented" at once, but Rand handled very much more...**
What I said before:
****TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions
From the first he knew it was a dream, one of those dreams that was not entirely dream. He stood staring at the wooden door, its surface dark and cracked and rough with splinters. The air was cold and dank, thick with the smell of decay. In the distance water dripped, the splashes hollow echoes down stone corridors.**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
Darkness surrounded him, the utter blackness of total nothing. The steps were still there, hanging in the black, under his feet and ahead. When he looked back, those behind were gone, faded away to nothing, into the nothingness around him. But the cord was yet there, stretching behind him, the glowing line dwindling and vanishing into the distance. It was not so thick as before, but it still pulsed, pumping strength into him, pumping life, filling him with the Light. He climbed.**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
It seemed forever that he climbed. Forever, and minutes. Time stood still in nothingness. Time ran faster. He climbed until suddenly a door stood before him, its surface rough and splintered and old, a door well remembered. He touched it, and it burst to fragments. While they still fell, he stepped through, bits of shattered wood falling from his shoulders.**
Compare this to our first confirmed Skimming.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean
Darkness surrounded him once the door vanished, blackness stretching in all directions, yet he could see. There was no sensation of heat or cold, even wet as he was; no sensation at all. Only existence. Plain gray stone steps rose in front of him, each step hanging unsupported, arching out until they dwindled from sight. He had seen these before, or their like; somehow he knew they would take him where he had to go. He ran up the impossible stairs, and as his boot left each one behind with its damp footprint, it faded away, vanished. Only steps ahead waited, only those taking him where-he had to go. That was as it had been before, too.**
The fact that RAND remembers the same type of Skimming, proves the fact that Rand (or LTT could've) went to Ishy and not having been taken there.**
And adding to it:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
Ten paces in front of him, the hilltop dropped away sharply. He knew what he would see before he reached it, but he took the steps anyway, each heavier than the one before, hoping there might be some track, a goat path, anything. At the edge he looked down a sheer hundred-foot drop, a stone wall as smooth as planed timber.
Within the void, his mind knew a moment of panic. The charging horsemen could not see him in the dust; their charge would trample right over him. The greater part of him ignored the shaking ground as a petty thing beneath concern. Dull anger driving his feet, he mounted the first steps. It has to be ended!**
RJ purposefully made these events very vauge (I refuse to believe that RJ "changed his mind" about these things, either he did it on puruse to be confusing, since it is Rand's first few times channeling and weird stuff is happening to him, or something else is affecting them and we haven't guessed it) because it was Rand's first few times channeling. And the closest thing it resembles is Skimming, and since Rand was going off wilder instincts to channel for almost all of a TEOTW (depending on what you view as doing it purposfully).
And with Rand being able to see the glowing cord of saidin coming from Aginor and himself at the Eye, and him seeing those in only very special places of TAR, we can assume that the Eye is a speical part of TAR. Hence why you can only find it with great "need" (what do Dreamwalkers use to find new clan holdings? Need. What did Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene use it TAR throughout the series? Need.).
Ishy did use TAR tricks. He made an illusion of Kari al'Thor, Egwene, and Nynaeve appear to Rand. Ishy was trying to convert Rand to the Shadow, not harm him. And Ishy was 1) in the presence of a ta'veren (yes that even effects him) and 2) was expecting Rand to be most likely weaker and more giving into his turnings.
On Rand handling all that stuff, remember, he is the Dragon Reborn; a very special soul, and a very special channeler.
checkout operator: 2005-11-29
here is a question- when rand is at "the gap" who is talking to him telling him the battle is not here?
A-moiraine
B-L.T.T
C-the creator
D-ishy
E-his mum!!!
i really dont know im prob been stupid but there u go!
JakOShadows: 2005-11-29
I believe the voice is the creator. Because he says that he cannot do it for him, and that his champion has to fight it for him. But I don't have the exact quote, I'm sure someone does though;).
AnotherForsaken: 2005-11-30
In response to why Aginor wanted the eye so bad and why he didnt want Rand to use ANY of it. Everyone knows how its says in the books that a channeler cant heal themselves. And yet Aginor is rejuvinating his flesh. maybe with the eye being a pool of saidin it lets him heal himself, perhaps something to do with "standing flows" which no longer exist, as present day Aes Sedia cant make pools of the power. and Aginor didnt want Rand to use any because if he did Aggy might not be able to finish.
vgman1: 2005-11-30
The he travels to Tarwin's Gap seems a lot like what he did in TSR to get to Rhuidean, except he didn't have a Portal Stone in tEotW. Maybe some Power exists like that which was used to create the Portal Stones.
JakOShadows: 2005-12-01
But wouldn't the basic rules of channeling still apply. Even if it is a 'standing pool' of saidin, he can't perform a miracle that normally couldn't happen. It's just a pool of saidin. I think it might be the purity , or the shear amount he could channel. But it's not just the fact that its the eye, that would imply that its not saidin.
Zarul Argia: 2005-12-01
Jak, I have the quote here of what is supposed to be the Creator speaking to Rand.
Book 1 - Eye of the World
CH 51 - Against the Shadow
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE.
Through the mist, as from the far end of the earth, came a cry. "The Light wills it!" The ground rumbled with the thunder of hooves as the forces of humankind launched their last charge.
Just for the sake of pointing out the obvious, it seems the Creator is speaking to Rand in a very similar way that the DO speaks to the Forsaken.
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-12-01
I don't think that even with that pool of Saidin, Aginor could heal himself. He's still using the OP, even if from a different location than the Source.
I think that the reason he really wanted the pool of Saidin was because of secrecy reasons. Since Aginor has that filter from the DO so he gets clean Saidin, the DO also knows when Aginor channels and what for. If Aginor uses the clean pool, he can use it without the DO knowing. Also, Aginor could have known that a seal or the Horn of Valere was underneath the pool of Saidin.
Callandor: 2005-12-01
**In response to why Aginor wanted the eye so bad and why he didnt want Rand to use ANY of it. Everyone knows how its says in the books that a channeler cant heal themselves. And yet Aginor is rejuvinating his flesh. maybe with the eye being a pool of saidin it lets him heal himself, perhaps something to do with "standing flows" which no longer exist, as present day Aes Sedia cant make pools of the power. and Aginor didnt want Rand to use any because if he did Aggy might not be able to finish.**
RJ answered this in the Tor Q&A, and Lord of the Dawn was closest to it. Aginor was paranoid about the black cords filtering out the taint, and thought that the Dark One might know that he was channeling and what he was channeling. He simply wanted to channel without the Dark One knowing he was, in his mind.
That, and one cannot Heal themself. Period.
Threefold Bob: 2005-12-16
In regards to a new way of travelling yet to be explained, Lanfear hits me as a prime example. I dont have the books on me atm, but 2 occasions come to mind. In tGH Lanfear visits Rand after his fight with Isho, and in the POV of Min she disappears seamlessly. The quote is something along the lines of - "She disappeared...one instant she was standing there, the next she wasnt..." There was no stepping through of invisible gateways, she simply disappeared. To prove this is no fluke she does it again in tDR. Its either the part where she visits Mat or where she talks to Egwene who was chasing Else Grim-whatever in the corridor (sorry i cant remember which, my mind is shot right now and i dont know where my books are). She disappears again after talking.
Ok people so (apparently) here is this way of travelling that seems far more efficient than going through the hassle of opening a gateway, that leaves no residue (assumingly) and just looks cool, yet rarely used...why?
Im throwing this out there. Who reckons this is a form of travelling, possibly the same that Rand experienced at the eye? If so what is it and why isnt it used more often?...OR...Could Lanfear be inverting weaves and bending light in order to seem invisable and thus give the semblance of the old disappearing trick? just an idea...probably stupid...im quite tired right now but its bugging me, i want to punch it...
checkout operator: 2005-12-20
in regards to who was talking to rand at tarwins gap yaeh i tought that it was prob the creator but if it was why has he not talked to rand again?
Cirrus: 2005-12-21
As to why Aginor was hording the powers of the eye, i have my own theory. as we know, he created the trollocs and mydrhall (sp?), and that must of taken large amounts of the OP. Imagine what kind of creature aginor could make if he had as much power as the eye. imagine an army of super trollocs/grolms/shadowhounds.
I doubt he wanted it for something as trivial as healing, as he was a darkfriend and could count on the Dark Lord to heal him should he become to injured (we have to assume that the forsaken are aware that the dark one can revive them from death, or at least suspect it). this being said, he has to find some way to please the DO enough that his revival is ensured: create an army that can easily crush the humans, ensuring smooth sailing for the DO's return.