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aidal Cain was ripped from the wheel by Moghedien

by WinespringBrother: 2002-12-09 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

This is a post I put up on the boards:

What if Moghedien also ripped Gaidal Cain from the wheel? If she did it to Birgitte, why not to him also? In the last fight with Birgitte, before being captured by Nynaeve, Moggy turned Birgitte into a child. Maybe she captured Gaidal, turned him into a child, and then cast him out of TAR as part of the revenge on Birgitte. Remember, she hates Birgitte with a passion, and what better way to injure her than get back also at those she cares about, namely Gaidal Cain. What better way than ripping him from the wheel as well?

But they were reunited, in a sense, thanks to the ta'veren-ness of Mat. At least temporarily.
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Tamyrlin: 2002-12-09

My response would be that Birgitte broke rules and spoke with the girls. I don't think the Forsaken can just find the Heroes and force them out of T'A'R. I think the Heroes, like Birgitte, "visit" the dream portion of the Unseen World which is how Moghedien was able to find Birgitte and force her out. Otherwise I think the Pattern protects them, hence Gaidal getting upset at Birgitte for "breaking rules." I would think that Gaidal didn't break those rules. Just a thought.


WinespringBrother: 2002-12-10

I'm not so sure that the heroes are so safe in TAR, protected by the pattern, as you would think.

Birgitte tells Nynaeve that she is more vulnerable to the one power in TAR than when she was summoned by the horn, her reasoning being that when summoned by the horn, she wasn't there in the flesh, as she is in TAR now. This would lead you to believe that maybe they are safe from harm only as long as they stay hidden.

However, it seems that Moghedien can hide even better than the heroes can in TAR, and can avoid detection even by Birgitte, if she wants to remain hidden. Birgitte had doubts (in FOH, Meetings) as to whether she could actually find the spider if she wanted to remain hidden. She also said (FOH, Meetings) that she hadn't seen the spider in TAR since Nynaeve defeated her in Tanchico, which according to the chronology on, is a period of about 6 weeks. I'm sure that Moghedien was there, as it is her second home, during that time, just evading detection by Birgitte.

Gaidal also mentions to Birgitte that he has seen Moghedien in TAR (TSR, Need), so he isn't just biding his time away hiding out until he is called again, and assuming that his TAR hiding abilities are the same as Birgitte's, it is likely that Moghedien saw Gaidal as well. Because as we later see, Birgitte mistakenly thought herself hidden from Moghedien (FOH, A Silver Arrow), when Moghedien surprised them after they spied on her and the forsaken chat. Moghedien most likely let Birgitte see her, as part of a trap to snare her. Moggy then easily snuck up on Birgitte and Nynaeve outside the menagerie, and even listened to part of their conversation without their awareness.

Moghedien also knew a great deal about the nature of Birgitte, and probably Gaidal as well. With that knowledge, and her nature of being cautious in general, her strategy to go after Birgitte would involve getting Gaidal out of the way first, divide and conquer in other words. So she may have removed Gaidal secretly first, not killing him but rather tearing him from the wheel to injure him psychologically, before springing the trap on Birgitte and Nynaeve.

It would also make sense in the story line, for Gaidal to be ripped from the wheel as Birgitte was, since they were always linked together. Gaidal may be younger now rather than older than Birgitte as is usually the case, but he was still "born" first into the waking world, thus older in a sense of time spent in Randland.


BandofRedHand: 2002-12-15

Newbie here so be gentle, but uhhhh isn't it widley believed that Gaidal Cain has been spun out by the wheel as Olver?


WinespringBrother: 2002-12-15

Widely believed, Yes. Proven, no. The main point of contention with that theory is Olver's age - since Gaidal was seen in TAR by Birgitte up to TSR, how did he get spun out and age 9 or so years in such a short span of time?

But if Moggy ripped him out, after turning him into a child, that would explain his aging so quickly.

If Olver is Gaidal, I think this happened outside of the pattern's control also, so to speak. Why would the pattern spin out a hero, or let one get ripped out, at such a late time, as to be virtually useless for the upcoming last battle, especially since he would be more useful as a Hero of the Horn, full grown and invincible in TRW?


Dragons Shadow: 2002-12-19

Is it not possible that the Wheel, knowing that Birgitte will be ripped out of TAR in an untimely manner (untimely only if it wasn't planned that way to provide Birgitte's knowledge of past lives to assist with TG), spun GC out as a young boy rather than having him born in the usual manner? Perhaps he was placed exactly where he was when Mat found him. I seem to remember a line somewhere about how GC could ride " ... as if he were born on horseback." (foreshadowing maybe?) Why? The wheel ALWAYS spins GC and Bir out as a couple. GC has to be old enough to eventually be a romantic interest. (Or do you REALLY believe that Mog, the WEAKEST of the Forsaken, has the power to change the very fabric of the pattern, AGAINST the will of the Wheel?) I think that the wheel takes ALL events (Past, Present, and Future) into account when weaving the pattern. Remember ... when coincidence happens, the Wheel seems to be FORCING events.

Everyone ready to rip this to shreds?





Tamyrlin: 2002-12-19

The problem is that Jordan sets up the idea that the Pattern doesn't have to spin them out together when he tells us through Birgitte that they are not together always, that in fact, she has lived lives without being attached to him. In other words, it doesn't have to happen.


Theron: 2003-02-12

We are forgetting one small detail. It is possible that heroes will be needed after the last battle and that CG was spun out so that he can be a hero during that time. That is assuming the Rand manages to reseal the DO. (Does anyone believe that he could defeate him directly, even with the Sa'angreal he used on the taint? It might be possible, but I think it improbable).


Lord of the Morning: 2003-07-17

I'm not sure who Birgitte was talking to, but I recall her saying (before she was ripped out by Mogy) that she hasn't seen Gaidal for a while. Also I recall that she said elsewhere that time in TAR is different than the real world, meaning that Gaidal could have been spun out months earlier and ended up being able to age up to 9-10 years old in Randland.


Vander: 2003-09-30

he couldnt have been spun out earlier as you said. Birgitte did say she hadnt seen him in a while, and time DOES work different, but if you remember, Elayne saw GC in TAR also. i dont care how time works, i dont think she can see him in TAR when he was spun out 9-10 years earlier. when the heroes get spun out, they aren't in the dream world anymore, and im pretty sure that GC isnt a Dreamer. or a wolfbrother.


moridin68: 2003-09-30

Min had a viewing of Birgitte at one point, and she saw Birgitte always with the same man. She also saw that the man was older than Birgitte, but was sometimes younger too. I thought that pretty much cleared it up for me.