onding Aes Sedai and Asha'man
by HawkeWolfe: 2003-12-31 | Not yet rated
I am not sure there is any theory in this, maybe just speculation. We know that Aes Sedai can bond men who channel (Alanna/Rand) and we have seen Asha'man bond Aes Sedai (Logain etc...)
Has anyone thought about what would happen if, say, Rand bonded Alanna while she had him bonded? Would there be any difference? Once bonded does it matter who bonded who? Does the "Bonder" have more control than the "Bondee" If Rand were to bond Alanna, would there be some sort of feedback loop set up? I know that bonding has advantages for the person being bonded, but what does it give the person doing the bonding? It would seem to me that if there are different advantages then wouldn't it be a good thing for Rand and Elayne (when Rand's bond is given to her by Alanna, if that ever happens) to bond each other? That way they both have the advantages (heal faster, more endurance, can do without sleep, etc...). Of course that raises the question of what happens to the bond that Elayne has with Brigitte. Would Rand feel that bond? Would it even be something to worry about? I know that this is more of a what if, but this is the way my mind works. Please feel free to add your own opinions. Thanks
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-02
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Obviously there are some differences between the Aes Sedai-originated bond and the Asha'man-originated bond. And people bonded to multiple people bonded to multiple people has happened and could get messy. We'll have to wait and see how all the bonds interact with each other. As for how people react to bonding chains (say, Min to Alanna through Rand), we haven't seen that yet. So who knows if anything's there or not.
as for double-bonding... personally, i think if two channelers both bond each other, you'll get a gestalt effect, amplifying the effects of both bonds. But there's nothing to prove, or disprove, that.
It'd be curious to see what would happen if Logain allowed Toveine or Gabrelle to bond him, if that would lessen the total mental control Logain has over them through his bond.
2
heronblade: 2004-01-05
In (i think) EotW, Lan and Mor told us about bonding. Lan got all the benifits of faster healing, more endurance, can do without sleep ect. but we were also told Mor got something out of it. we wern't told exactly what though. As to 'Does the "Bonder" have more control than the "Bondee",Rand couldn't be compelled by Alanna, he didn't even notice her attempts, other asha'man can compell their bonded aes sedai. Alanna also seems to come out worse with the effects of the bond. emotionally she cannot cope with the sepporation.
3
natas: 2004-01-06
Great idea.
The "control" aspect of the bond between the Ash'man and the Aes Sedai came from Taim when Logain arrived at the Black Tower. Grady, Narishma, and Eben was away and with Rand at the time this is first introduced at the Black Tower with Logain. Ash'men knowing that their wives were alive, or had a broken leg or something, had no control that we know of, just the knowing that their wives were alive and a little bit else.
This is similar to when women (Aes Sedai) bond men who cannot channel. And men (Asha'men) bond women who cannot channel. The bond between male and female who can channel, I agree, that it gives both participants the advantage of the mutual bond.
But the "control" aspect of the bond with Logain is problematic. Have a hunch that it's Taim's doing somehow with compulsion; he knows a certain weave in the bonding process which causes the compulsion. Something similar to what Verin did with the Aes Sedai in the Aiel tents after Dumai Wells. And Logain was taught when he reached the Black Tower. Which still leads me to Daemandred. But alas.
If Taim didn't cause the "control" with the Ash'men bonding the Aes Sedai, then it must be who bonds first gets control, and that did not happened to Rand.
It makes sense that mutual bonding will happen before Tar'mon Gaidon. Taim has a hand in the compulsion somehow.
4
free will: 2004-01-07
I personally believe that cicular bonding is impossible. The Forsaken are unfamiliar with bonding because it wasn't done then (although maybe voluntary "rings" are similar if, in fact, bonding is what the Forsaken refer to as "involuntary rings", but I really don't know what a voluntary ring is).
The reason I believe that circular bonding is impposible is because I have yet to see the weaker case of a bondEE (to anyone) also being a bondER (of anyone). If being bonded means that you can't bond anyone, then you never have to worry about circularity. I like directionality because then RJ doesn't have to violate special relativity.
5
Elder Haman: 2004-01-09
An Aes Sedai is suppose to be able to control their warder with the bond, and Alanna tried- but failed. Using the bond so is considered a violation a protocol though- and apparantly can make Warder's very angry. (see Myrelle when she greets Lan).
6
brigitta: 2004-01-11
I thought that the control thing had to be done right after the boding when the recipients willpower was weak enough, and that it is some kind of Compulsion, with a turn-on-turn-off effect...
7
Callandor: 2004-01-11
**I thought that the control thing had to be done right after the boding when the recipients willpower was weak enough, and that it is some kind of Compulsion, with a turn-on-turn-off effect...**
Ok, Ashaman can give ANY order that the wish to their bonded Aes Sedai, at anytime, and it will hold them. It does not seem to require channeling to and the bond does not seem to need to be altered by the bond, as per Toveine and Gabrelle's POVs.
Think of the Ashaman bond as an Aes Sedai bond with an Oath Rod comming with it. The orders they give are immediately taken into effect and cannot be broken; the orders have to be released by the Ashaman. The orders are PERMANENT untill they are undone, IE: there is no need to repeatedly say "You will not escape" through channeling or the bond. Once said, it is set in stone until the Ashaman releases it (the order, not the bond; but that would probably work too).
8
Elder Haman: 2004-01-12
Though from the Aes Sedai's point of view their bond does seem to require some element of channeling to "compel" the Warder. (Aparrently it is the closeness to compulsion that makes Aes Sedai uncomfortable aboutusing it- also, it's suggested that if a Warder becomes aware of the use of the bond to compel him he can in some measure resist it.)
9
brigitta: 2004-01-14
what I ment was that in order to control the Warder in the future the 'control thing' has to be set right after bonding, so to speak a preliminary compulsion. not all of the AS orders are carried out to the point and not all Warders accept these orders.
10
Kazami: 2004-01-22
This got me thinking...
I'm thinking that the "weave" for bonding is/was a weave used in the creation of "bonding" ter'angreal...ie Oath Rod. The Oath Rods bind the aes'sedai as they hold it. Aes Sedai may have discovered how to bond warders to them when they were researching their artifacts from the AoL after the Breaking, and discovered part of the weave that makes the Oath Rod work, but not how to make one.
As I remember, ter'angreals are just vessels that do specific things when someone holding the one power uses them. This could mean that the weave Logain and the other Asha'man used was the actual weave that the Oath Rod uses when someone swears on them...instead of being bound to the Oath Rod, the Aes Sedai become bonded to the Asha'man that cast the weave.
It's my belief that, in order for Rand to become "Tamyrlin", he'll need to summon the "Nine Rods of Dominion"...and Aes Sedai, working with Asha'man, will create new "rods of dominion" (oath rods) for him. I have a hunch that he will use such items to have the Seanchan swear fealty to him, without the effect of the warder-channeler bond. Elayne and the Asha'man working together on it, maybe?
11
Deadsy: 2004-01-22
I don't remember anything saying the Aes Sedai have to try the compelling right away. I don't think it matters. That's what Alanna did, but it's just because she felt like it. The reason it didn't work is because Rand was holding Saidin. I also think AS can't compel male channelers who are stronger than them.. Merise is worried in CoT about Jahar getting stronger than her.
12
heronblade: 2004-01-22
I always thought "voluntary rings" were when channelers linked and had to 'volunterally'(sp)pass control of the source over to whoever was leading the group and "involuntary rings" were the leashes that made this power share 'involuntary'. Also, the "control" aspect Merise is worried about in COT with Jahar getting stronger than her? wouldn't any Aes Sedai be nervous around a man that she thought might go mad any minute and she might lose control. if he's more powerful than her and he surprises her then who knows what might happen? wouldn't you be nervous too?
13
Deadsy: 2004-01-23
It's not so obvious a thing, since there isn't evidence anywhere else that the Asha'man won't always be controlled by AS who hold their bonds, so I was just pointing that out. There's Rand, but he was holding saidin when Alanna tried compelling him.. and no man can be compelled while holding saidin. I think when Narishma does get stronger than Merise, he won't be a lapdog anymore.
