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Terez 05-25-2012 06:07 AM

Terez's reread
I don't want a forum; a thread will do. I have been spamming the hell out of Twitter, so I figure I should attempt to let it out elsewhere. I have also been holding in a lot of my reread chatter to keep the Twitter-spamming to a minimum.

My reread thought for the night is something I've believed for a long time (like since before I joined here) and is probably true, but no one ever talks about it. When Birgitte is ripped out, you get a short Liandrin POV of Moghedien being Healed by Chesmal, then giving Liandrin her fancy shield, etc. Then Moghedien takes off to Ghealdan, tells them to follow on fast horses, and they never see her again.

Birgitte was ripped out in the night; early in the day Nynaeve saw Uno and went into the city with him. On the way out she passed a menagerie under the name of Mairin Gome.


Originally Posted by TFOH 38, An Old Acquaintance
The sign over the entrance to the nearest show said MAIRIN GOME in florid green and gold. Two women were clearly visible above the sign, clinging to a rope hanging from a tall framework of poles that had not been there when Luca's walls went up. Apparently the boar-horses' rearing high enough to be seen was having an effect. The women contorted themselves into positions that made Nynaeve think uncomfortably of what Moghedien had done, and somehow even managed to hold themselves out in horizontal handstands to either side of the rope. The crowd waiting impatiently in front of Mistress Gome's sign was almost as large as the one in front of Luca's. None of the other shows had anything visible that she could see, and their crowds were much smaller.

Nynaeve spent several hours in Samara with Uno and Ragan, talking to Masema and Galad, etc. Uno told her about a woman who had her neck broken (and then hanged) four days before because she was suspected of being Aes Sedai; the Whitecloaks apparently whipped up the mob. When she came back to the show after all that, there was a woman supposedly from that show:


Originally Posted by TFOH 40, The Wheel Weaves
To her surprise, there was an addition to the show. On a new platform not far from the entry, a woman in gauzy yellow trousers was standing on her head, arms outstretched to either side with a pair of white doves on each hand. No, not on her head. The woman was gripping some sort of wooden frame in her teeth and balancing on that. As Nynaeve watched, aghast, the peculiar acrobat lowered her hands to the platform for a moment while bending herself double, until she seemed to be sitting on her own head. Even that was not enough. Her legs curved down in front of her, then impossibly back up under her arms, whereupon she transferred the doves to the upturned soles of her feet, now the highest part of the contorted ball she had knotted herself into. The onlookers gasped and applauded, but the sight made Nynaeve shiver. It was all too good a reminder of what Moghedien had done to her....

...In an attempt to cover checking the sun, she nodded toward the woman in the gauzy trousers, who had now begun to twist herself into something that Nynaeve knew was impossible. While still balancing on her teeth. "Where did she come from?"

"Luca hired her," Birgitte answered calmly. "He bought some leopards, as well. Her name is Muelin."

If Birgitte was all self-possessed coolness, Elayne very nearly quivered with emotion. "Where did she come from?" she spluttered. "She came from a show that a mob nearly destroyed!"

"I heard about that," Nynaeve said, "but that isn't what is important. I —"

"Not important!" Elayne rolled her eyes to the heavens as if for guidance. "Did you also hear why? I don't know whether it was Whitecloaks or this Prophet, but somebody whipped up that mob because they thought..." She glanced around without slowing and lowered her voice; none of the crowd had stopped, but every passerby stared at two obvious performers standing. "... that a woman in the show might wear a shawl." She emphasized the last word significantly. "Fools to think she'd be with a traveling menagerie, but then, you and I are."

With all the menageries around, it's strange she didn't find work in four days' time. Muelin was positioned by the entrance to watch all comings and goings, and presumably she left the show as soon as the girls did, three days later. She was no longer with Luca's show when Thom and Juilin returned to it with Mat a little over 5 months later.

Anyway, I've always thought Muelin was Moghedien, so I figured I'd share; no one else seems to have talked about that at all on the internet that I can find, and the people I've mentioned it to hadn't thought of it. Maybe it's just that no one cares; I'm sure that if Moghedien's identity had still been up in the air at the end of TFOH, everyone would know by now that she was Muelin for a time, and it's a short step from there to Marigan. But since she was all taken care of by the end of the book, no one bothered to mention it. (Including me.)

GonzoTheGreat 05-25-2012 06:22 AM

It is also possible that Muelin had been in hiding for a couple of days. Having a lynch mob descend on you makes some people nervous.
And she may very well have decided not to stay around in the area at all, being nervous anyway and then having some of the performers (Elayne and friends) leave for unexplained reasons may have made her decide to go and perform in Tear or Saldaea or something like that.

I don't think that Moghedien was physically capable of doing that kind of contortionist things. If she had been, then she probably would have managed to duck the thing Nynaeve threw at her in Tanchico* too.

* Curious, isn't it, that if it had been GWB who Nynaeve had been fighting there, then he would beaten her. The shoe incident in Bagdad proved that he does know how to duck projectiles.

Terez 05-25-2012 06:41 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190528)
It is also possible that Muelin had been in hiding for a couple of days. Having a lynch mob descend on you makes some people nervous.

Possible, but unlikely.


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190528)
I don't think that Moghedien was physically capable of doing that kind of contortionist things.

As Nynaeve said, no one was. Moghedien was taunting her with the acrobatics, and she was probably using Illusion.

Davian93 05-25-2012 08:42 AM

Interesting tidbit and theory. This is one of the things I love most about WoT...even after dozens of rereads, there is almost always another detail that was missed to find.

Terez 05-25-2012 02:09 PM

Despite the overdose of female in TFOH, I have to say that I am loving Nynaeve in this book. She's always a bit...herself...but in this book it's really easy for me to relate to her. She starts out the book in a bad mood, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. She has moments where she's moping about Birgitte, or scared to death that Moghedien is going to come get her (and haha, Moghedien has already found her and she's too scared to make a move), but inevitably someone says something to her—it pretty much doesn't matter what, after a certain point—and off she goes.

I just started The Price of a Ship, and it's top-notch stuff; I'd forgotten how much so. I dig the Elayne-Nynaeve overload (this is when they really start to grate on each other past the fleeting stuff, for the first time, because Elayne is very patient usually). There are a lot of bits from their time together (basically from TGH to WH when Nynaeve finally escapes) that I have often referenced, but it's something else in context. Now that I'm near the end of the book I feel differently about the male-female balance in this one.

And also, The Price of a Ship is one of the best theme-summarizing chapter names in the series. But since we know it's fiction, we can appreciate the humor aspect of it too. I mean, Nynaeve asked the two craziest people in Samara to find a ship for her, knowing that it was unlikely two would come at once, and those two people were on opposite sides of a boiling cauldron that she had walked all across and back. And she didn't care; all she could think about was "I need a ship." And since she knew Masema was crazy she hedged her bets. In her defense Galad seems to have stolen Lanfear's love-pheromones or whatever.

Terez 05-25-2012 03:04 PM

Also, I'm about to get back to reading and probably won't stop until I get back to Rand, if then. But I'm excited about reading To Boannda in context. And I had a thought about the resurrection, which I will not overly spam Twitter with.

Part of the mythological basis for Rand's resurrection is in the Boann/Dagda legends and specifically in the way those legends are referenced in the most blatant and layered foreshadowing of Rand's death I know of in the entire series.

Part of the basis for the resurrection is in the Perun legends, and you can tell because of the way this particular story ties in with the Birgitte method, the Arthurian women (the harem), and even Slayer. So how is Perrin important to Rand's resurrection? The obvious answer is that he will deal with Slayer and whatever else is hunting Rand/protecting the dreamspike.

But I think it started with his meeting Birgitte. She said it herself:


Originally Posted by TSR, To the Tower of Ghenjei
She almost appeared to be leaning slightly on something invisible; perhaps that silver thing he had never quite seen. "I seem to be telling you a great deal. I do not understand why I spoke in the first place. Of course. Are you ta'veren, archer?"

"Who are you?" She seemed to know a lot about the tower, and the wolf dream. But she was surprised I could talk to Hopper. "I've met you before somewhere, I think."

"I have broken too many of the prescripts already, archer."

The reason why this is significant to the Perun legends: Perrin had just come through the Waygate at Manetheren, just above the Manetherendrelle. I think the Manetherendrelle and the Tarendrelle have symbolic reference to the live water and dead water of the Perun legends.


Originally Posted by Perun guy
Rain is a happy omen and, falling before a new endeavour is commenced, guarantees its success. The sick are given rain water, or water collected from the seven springs to drink. Rain water, or the water of life, as it is called in Russian, heals wounds, makes mutilated parts of the body grow, rejuvenates the old, and resurrects the dead.

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being. They bring death or life, and continuously work over the creation of the world (Here I may add that one of the magical values of live water is that it imparts wisdom and power to tell the future).

The arbor mundi is seen as a mediator between the world of the dead and the world of the living. The fight between the eagle and the snake demon is eternal, and represents the cycle of life and death, and of the seasons. The defeat of the demon results in the release of live waters. Death in slavic folklore is seen as a temporary state, a state of sleep. Nothing dies till the end. Every spring the sun comes out of the clutches of the forces of darkness; every spring Perun overpowers the snake demon, and life returns to the earth. Arbor mundi, associated with the theme of the constant revival and renewal, is seen as one of the attributes of Perun.

The sun in Russian folklore is metaphorically called Ognioni kamen, or Bel goruch kamen ? the white hot stone. Perun either holds the fire-stone (the fireball) in his hands, or his thick eyelashes hide the fire underneath them or, at times, he himself represents the sun. On the one hand, the sun (fire-stone) dies every winter or, having become weak, is overpowered by his adversary the dark forces of winter and revives every spring after having bathed in the pure waters released by Perun. On the other hand, Perun has to drink the living fluids of the celestial wells first before he is able to kill the snake demon, and send life generating rains down to earth. The sun as the eye of god Perun or, as the fire hidden in the eyes of god, can burn and destroy everything when they are open but, soaked in holy waters, it generates life-giving forces. These attributes of the sun and Perun are transferred on the earth to stones.

The Two Rivers flow from the Mountains of Mist, bordered on the other side by Tarabon, Almoth Plain, and Arad Doman. Verin noted in TGH, in the context of the Dark Prophecy concerning Slayer and Rand's permanent death, that all three had probable connections to chora trees:


Originally Posted by TGH 7, Blood Calls Blood
"Now, 'the ancient tree,'" Verin said, immersed in her own thoughts. "There have always been rumors – no more than that – that while the nation of Almoth still lived, they had a branch of Avendesora, perhaps even a living sapling. And the banner of Almoth was 'blue for the sky above, black for the earth below, with the spreading Tree of Life to join them.' Of course, Taraboners call themselves the Tree of Man, and claim to be descended from rulers and nobles in the Age of Legends. And Domani claim descent from those who made the Tree of Life in the Age of Legends. There are other possibilities, but you will note, Mother, that at least three center around Almoth Plain and Toman Head."

Later in TSR (i.e. after Perrin meets Birgitte) we learn that the Aiel had hard times approaching the Aryth Coast:


Originally Posted by TSR 26, The Dedicated
Jonai stood at the edge of the cliff staring out westward over the sun-sparkled water. A hundred leagues in that direction lay Comelle. Had lain Comelle. Comelle had clung to the mountains overlooking the sea. A hundred leagues west, where the sea now ran....

..."You have chora cuttings," one of the Ogier said. His thick fingers gently brushed the trefoil leaves of the two potted plants tied to the side of a wagon.

"Some," Adan said curtly. "They die, but the old folk keep new cuttings before they do." He had no time for trees. He had a people to look after....

..."You have come from the east?" another Ogier asked. He wiped his bowl with a heel of bread and gulped it down. "How is it to the east?"

"Bad," Jonai replied. "Perhaps not so bad for you, though. Ten – no, twelve days ago, some people took a third of our horses before we could escape. We had to abandon wagons." That pained him. Wagons left behind, and what was in them....

...Jonai managed to seize his son's frayed collar and pull his face close. "Take – the people – south." He had to force the words out between spasms that seemed to be ripping his heart out.

So there's a reasonable explanation as to why any of those three places might have had chora trees; perhaps all three did.

So one might say the Two Rivers flow from the Tree. The Dark Prophecy seems to think so, and if it's only the nation of Almoth that's representative of that, it is the most centered one on the origin of those two rivers.

I'm not sure the Tree symbolism will come into play beyond that, unless you want to count Rand going to live there after he's resurrected, and Perrin being his guardian in a way. I tried to think of a good reason for Rand to be resurrected on a boat in the Waterwood, but I can't come up with a plausible one. It's too bad, really.

Anyway, more symbolism. The eagle on top of the Tree seems to tie to the red eagle of Manetheren, and there's another bit about a red bird at the end of that Perun page:


Originally Posted by Perun guy
Slava is a beautiful bird - a messenger of God Perun, every feather of which was said to shine a different color. This beautiful bird was called MATEPb CBA (Mater Sva) which can be translated either as Mater Slava (Mother Glory), Mater svex (Mother of everyone) or Mater Sova (Mother Owl - which may be why much of Russian Folk art depicts an owl). This flame colored bird usually appeared in the critical moment and pointed with its wing the direction in which an army should go. Everyone knew that either glory or a glorious death awaited the warriors and the prince had no choice but to follow the bird's lead.

Also, the tie of Perrin to the sun is interesting because if anyone fits the Dagda (who stops the sun to conceal Boann's pregnancy with his child) in physical and symbolic attributes, it's Perrin. (See this fan rendition of him.) From that page:


Originally Posted by John
The Dagda and Boann
The Dagda once fell in love with Boann, a beautiful river goddess; he attempted to resist his feelings, because she was his father's wife, but when he found that she loved him as well he was powerless to resist her. The two carried on a clandestine affair until Boann became pregnant; fearing that their relationship would be discovered when Nuada returned the next day, the Dagda grasped the sun and held it in place for nine months until Boann could give birth to a beautiful baby boy, Aengus, the only person ever to have been conceived and born in only one day. When the sun went down, Nuada returned, but the Dagda had already spirited the child away for safekeeping, and he never learned of his wife's unfaithfulness.

The Dagda and the Morrigan
When the Dagda went forth to battle with the Fomorians, he met the Morrigan on the way, waiting for him by a river. She prophesied his doom and frightened him with her omens of blood and defeat, but she promised that if he kept a tryst with her she would provide him with battle plans that could not be defeated. He agreed to this and they coupled beneath the trees, after which she promised to send all the magicians and sorcerers to aid him, turning the tide of battle.

The Morrigan is a parallel to Marigan a.k.a. Moghedien. I could go on and on but I'm tired and I want to read more and I think anyone who is interested can pick the same things out of the text that I did. I will say, though, that I noticed a lot of random sun chatter between Perrin and Faile and in their general vicinity in TSR. Perrin's ta'veren swirl is what led Birgitte to break the precepts, so that she could meet Nynaeve and teach her how to heal Rand's death.

Terez 05-25-2012 03:31 PM

Ahhh, just read this:


Originally Posted by TFOH, The Price of a Ship
Birgitte's smile tightened. "And I knew a woman like you, once. Mathena looked down her nose at men, too, and even had a poor fellow executed for coming on her by accident while she swam naked. She had never even been kissed, until Zheres stole one from her. You'd have thought she had discovered men for the first time. She became so besotted, Zheres had to go live on a mountain to escape her. Watch out for the first man to kiss you. One has to come along sooner or later."

Zaltys/Veles was the demon Perun had to fight against. And in the dream, he looks like Lan...

(Also note the Athena parallel.)


Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In one version of the Tiresias myth, Tiresias stumbled upon Athena bathing, and he was struck blind by her to ensure he would never again see what man was not intended to see. But having lost his eyesight, he was given a special gift - to be able to understand the language of the birds (and thus to foretell the future).

Terez 05-26-2012 04:53 AM

I wonder if Moghedien made the unicorn:


Originally Posted by TFOH, To Boannda
Creating fantastical flowers or shapes by thinking of them was much more fun. The effort involved seemed related to both how large the thing was and whether it might really exist. Trees covered with wildly shaped blossoms in red and gold and purple were harder to make than a stand-mirror to examine what you had done to your dress, or what the other woman had done to it. A gleaming crystal palace rising out of the ground was harder still, and even if felt solid to the touch, it changed whenever the image in your mind wavered and vanished as soon as the image did. They quietly decided to leave animals alone after a peculiar thing – much like a horse with a horn on its nose! – chased them both up a hill before they could make it vanish. That very nearly sparked a new argument, with each of them claiming the other had made it, but by that time Elayne had recovered enough of her old self to start giggling over how they must have looked, racing up the hill with their skirts hauled up, shouting at the thing to go away. Even Elayne's stubborn refusal to admit it had been her fault could not stop Nynaeve's giggles from bubbling up, too.

She was still on the ship with them at the time. She was also presumably responsible for the death of this guy:


Originally Posted by TFOH, To Boannda
All but two of the men were grizzled or balding, with leathery faces and work-callused hands. Younger men had been snatched into the army if they were not caught up by the Prophet; those who refused one or the other had been hanged. The young pair – little more than boys, really; Nynaeve doubted if either had to shave regularly – wore hunted stares, and flinched if one of the Shienarans looked at them. Sometimes the older men talked of starting over, finding a bit of land to farm or taking up their trade again, but the tone of their voices said it was more bluff and bravado than real hope. Mostly they talked quietly of their families; a wife lost, sons and daughters lost, grandchildren lost. They sounded lost. The second night, a jug-eared fellow who had seemed the most enthusiastic in a sad lot had just vanished; he was simply gone when the sun came up. He might have swum ashore. Nynaeve hoped he had.

GonzoTheGreat 05-26-2012 06:33 AM


Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190633)
I wonder if Moghedien made the unicorn:

What would have been the point?

Does the unicorn show that they were both still virgins at that time?
I don't know whether or not that specific feature of the unicorn legends made it into the Third Age, so it's not entirely obvious.

Terez 05-26-2012 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190637)
What would have been the point?

It was charging them until they ran away. It was a way for Moghedien to attack them without them realizing they were being attacked.

Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:


Originally Posted by TFOH, News Comes to Cairhien
"You are very brave, it seems, Mat." It was flatly said, and the silence that followed stiffened his face. "Very brave," she said finally, "to lead Shen an Calhar across the Alguenya and south against the Andorans. Even braver than that, for there are rumors that you went alone to scout the way, and Talmanes and Nalesean had to ride hard to catch up to you." Egwene sniffed loudly in the background. "Hardly wise for a young lord leading his men."

Mat's lip curled. "I'm no lord; I've more respect for myself than that."

"But very brave," Moiraine said as if he had not spoken. "Andoran supply wagons burned, outposts destroyed. And three battles. Three battles, and three victories. With small loss to your own men, though outnumbered." As she fingered a rip in the shoulder of his coat he sank back as far the chair would allow. "Are you drawn to the thick of battles, or are they drawn to you? I am almost surprised you came back. To hear the stories, you might have driven the Andorans back across the Erinin had you stayed."

Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.

Originally Posted by TFOH
The stormy meeting with Rand had gone on till the sun set, him dodging, refusing, Rand following as doggedly as Hawkwing after the rout at Cole Pass. What was he to do? If he rode out again, Talmanes and Nalesean would surely follow with as many men as they could put in the saddle, expecting him to find another battle. And he probably would; that was what really put a chill on it. Much as he hated to admit it, the Aes Sedai was right. He was drawn to battle or it to him. Nobody could have tried harder to avoid one on the other side of the Alguenya. Even Talmanes had commented on it. Until the second time his careful creeping away from one lot of Andorans took them where there was no choice but to fight another. And every time he could feel the dice rolling in his head; it was almost like a warning that a fight was just over the next hill, now.

That particular detail (the 'scout') is the only thing I missed, but it made me laugh when I realized. It's not that I can't laugh at stuff I've laughed at before, but it's nice to know that WoT still has new stuff for me, and probably always will.

Terez 05-26-2012 08:13 AM

Just realized another something:


Originally Posted by TFOH, Choices
"If you are not mine," she said coldly, "then you are dead."

Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream. Death was there, and he knew it. Frantically – even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled – he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly. His heart was no longer beating. Fingers of dark pain crushing the Void. Gray veil falling over his eyes. He felt his weave slice raggedly through hers. The burn of breath in empty lungs, lurch of heart beginning to pump again. He could see again, silver and black flecks floated between him and a stone-faced Lanfear still catching her balance from the rebound of her flows. The pain was there in head and chest like wounds, but the Void firmed, and bodily pain was remote.

Well that it was distant, for he had no time to recover. Forcing himself to move forward, he struck at her with Air, a club to knock her senseless. She slashed the weave, and he struck again, again, again each time that she sliced through his last weave, a furious rain of blows she somehow saw and countered, always moving closer. If he could keep her occupied for a moment more, if one of those invisible cudgels landed on her head, if he could get close enough to strike her with his fist... Unconscious, she would be as helpless as anyone else.

Suddenly she seemed to realize what he was doing. Still blocking his blows as easily as if she could see every one, she danced backwards until her shoulders hit the wagon behind her. And she smiled like winter's heart. "You will die slowly, and beg me to let you love me before you die," she said.

It was not at him directly that she struck this time. It was at his link to saidin.

That is, that she smiled 'like winter's heart' because she realized he didn't want to kill her. And she took it the wrong way, of course. I might have realized that before, but if I had I'd forgotten it again.

Davian93 05-26-2012 08:33 AM


Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190639)
It was charging them until they ran away. It was a way for Moghedien to attack them without them realizing they were being attacked.

Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:

Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.

That particular detail (the 'scout') is the only thing I missed, but it made me laugh when I realized. It's not that I can't laugh at stuff I've laughed at before, but it's nice to know that WoT still has new stuff for me, and probably always will.

Yeah, I've always loved that part.

GonzoTheGreat 05-26-2012 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190639)
Also, I just realized something. I would have realized it before if I'd ever put any thought into it:

Rode alone to scout the way. lol. He was trying to bloody get away, and they followed him. He said so himself in his own POV a few pages later (or thought it), or I might not have realized it this time either.

You should've told me that you hadn't caught this one. It was intuitively obvious to me the first time I read it, so I could have explained it to you also (I think).

Terez 05-26-2012 10:26 AM

Like I said, I would have understood it myself if I had put any thought into it. I didn't.

Terez 05-27-2012 06:02 AM

I had forgotten about this:


Originally Posted by LOC, The First Message
As though Desaine’s doubts had infected Therava, she began muttering, only half to herself. "What is ill done is going against Aes Sedai. We served them before the Breaking, and failed them; that is why we were sent to the Three-fold Land. If we fail them again, we will be destroyed."

That's one of those scenes I rarely look at for WoT discussion (especially that part of it), and so it slipped through the cracks somewhere. It's kind of strange knowing that Therava even cares.

Now on to Lion on the Hill, one of the most beautifully-written chapters in all of WoT.

Terez 05-27-2012 10:44 AM

Something I tweeted about the other day: I think that maybe the whole 'Dragon is one with the Land' thing might possibly explain the freaky weather. I only bring it up because it makes sense in a strange way.

Let's say that the Fisher King thing becomes active when Rand becomes ta'veren. RJ said that happened just before Moiraine appeared in the Two Rivers. You might say that it was the day before, but I think his comment leaves enough room for a few months. They had to draw Moiraine and Thom to the Two Rivers, probably, so it would make sense.

Even one month might have been enough, or perhaps two. Some time during the natural winter, Rand became ta'veren. And he was cold. So it stayed cold, until he traveled to the Blight. His victory there brought on the spring, finally.

Linda thinks there are two things going on here—Fisher King, and the Eddings-like game-using-surrogates thing—and I can buy that, but I think that, either way, it's not the Dark One's touch on the world, exactly.

The next time the weather went wonky was when Rand was in the Waste, where it's hot. And dry. (Except at night.) When they came out, it should have been into autumn, but instead, the fires of heaven were purging the earth:


Originally Posted by TFOH
With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.

fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon believed translated by N'Delia Basolaine First Maid and Swordfast to Raidhen of Hol Cuchone (circa 400 AB)

And that little problem didn't get fixed until the Bowl was used in TPOD. But we got the Fisher King prophecy in ACOS, when it was still bloody hot:


Originally Posted by ACOS
There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800

And then the second paragraph of the prologue:


Originally Posted by ACOS, Lightnings
This high, an almost constant breeze lessened the unnatural heat gripping the world. The Feast of Lights past, snow should have covered the ground deep, yet the weather belonged in the depths of a hard summer. Another sign that the Last Battle approached and the Dark One touched the world, if more were needed. Elaida did not let the heat touch her even when she descended, of course. The breeze was not why she had had her quarters moved up here, despite the inconvenience of so many stairs, to these simple rooms.

Those are the only two times the weather went wonky. The first time, he fixed it himself, either by using the Eye or beating Ishamael or just because he was in the Blight and he was warm, or because he went to Someshta's place. Which might have been the real purpose of the Eye. The second time he was off in crazyland with Lews Therin (barring that brief moment without him which was, if anything, worse), so his girlfriends had to fix it for him.

GonzoTheGreat 05-27-2012 11:09 AM

Then why wasn't the weather fixed when Rand cooled off in the Far Snows?
That should've put an end to the long hot summer, if your theory is correct.

And, of course, there's also the fact that Moridin seems to think it is the result of something the DO did:

Originally Posted by PoD, Chapter 2, Unweaving
The name meant nothing to him. But... a ter’angrealto control the weather... In his own Age, weather had been carefully regulated with the use of ter’angreal. One of the surprises of this Age – one of the smaller, it had seemed – was that there were those who could manipulate weather to a degree that should have required one of those ter’angreal. One such device should not be enough to affect even a large part of a single continent. But what could these women do with it? What? If they used a ring?
He seized the True Power without thought, the saabillowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased. Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now... Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al’Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now.

Terez 05-27-2012 11:29 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190683)
Then why wasn't the weather fixed when Rand cooled off in the Far Snows?

Presumably because he wasn't there long enough. Same reason the nights won't do it.


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190683)
And, of course, there's also the fact that Moridin seems to think it is the result of something the DO did:

Moridin thinks a lot of funny things.

Zombie Sammael 05-27-2012 01:56 PM

That would explain why, when the girls went looking for "something that would help Rand", they found the Bowl of Winds, especially if (as I suspect) Rand's link with the land is a two way street.

jana 05-27-2012 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael (Post 190689)
Rand's link with the land is a two way street.

So is your mom.

Sorry. I'm trying to put off doing something.

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