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Old 12-16-2012, 08:35 PM
Dom Dom is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Is there a quote I am missing?
I'll have to check. I don't really have quotes you don't have (I once did - a few old Wotmania things from reports that weren't catalogued, but I lost that list in a crash) I may rather remember a quote wrong.

Edit: yeah, it was that. What I remembered was the POD era extremely confusing quote which seems to say one thing and then its opposite. It's pretty much good for the trashcan that one.

Originally Posted by Terez View Post
PS—Meant to add, the fact that the banner was an afterthought is a big clue that they can fight without it. Hawkwing is just like, oh, Lews Therin is here. We should have the banner, shouldn't we? That's why Hawkwing took his instructions from Rand and barely paid any attention to Mat. When Rand is there, he's the boss.
I'm not sure about your "afterthought" interpretation Terez.

I think it was more a matter of Hawkwing assuming the Banner was there, only to realize he was held back because it wasn't in display.

He says:

""Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him."
The "something is wrong here", the murmur among the Heroes. I don't think the banner is optional. No more than the Dragon's presence. Something held the Heroes back, and after the Banner was displayed, they were held back no longer.

From RJ's "confusing" quote that whoever sounds the Horn is in control, the only explanation is that it's Mat who was holding back Hawkwing because of the Banner. It would be a reasonable explanation if it was plausible Mat thought of that, but it's not plausible.

Mind you, an answer from Maria to Luckers, where she said she thought since it was at the EOTW the Banner was very necessary but had no idea how or why suggests very much those matters are totally irrelevant/not to resurface/we'll never know the final word on this (all the more when we know Maria is fairly fond of the Heroes. A RAFO was more in order, if she knew something.).

That the Dragon is one of the Heroes of the Horn doesn't seem to be known.

Moiraine, Siuan, the girls etc. The connection isn't brought up. It's especially odd from Nynaeve and Elayne who know more than anyone else.

It makes me think not much attention is paid to the legends that the Heroes are reborn as the same archetype over and over.

They don't seem aware of the concept that the Heroes are a corrective mechanism either. If they were, the Aes Sedai would pay much more attention to the incarnations of the Heroes, and to Birgitte's apparition.

The characters don't go speculating Birgitte was this and that other woman before. Most of that is forgotten, some of the few remaining tales rather get attributed to the woman Birgitte who lived at the time of Arthur Hawkwing. They have no idea some of those tales aren't 1000 years old, buy 1600 or 2500. Others surviving tales have the right incarnation, but aren't associated with Birgitte.

But then, they are aware of the "theory" as Mat mentions awareness that Shivan and Callian are born at the end of Ages etc.

It's hard to figure out how much they believe real, how much they believe is legend in all of this. It's extremely curious no Aes Sedai has even wondered if the connection between the Horn and the Dragon may simply be that he's one of the Heroes.

They don't really connect very strong ta'veren and Heroes either. Given Rand and Hawkwing, they should. It's as if they aren't aware at all Hawkwing was one of the Heroes of the Horn, or the Dragon.

It's not matters RJ handled very clearly, let's say. The girls take all of it in stride, as if they knew all along it's all true - and it suggests it's widely known heroes are reborn over and over in archetypal roles, but the scholars of the story pay no attention to those matters. It's all very bizarre.

We could have very long and not very productive debates about these matters, the information is fairly confusing.

Last edited by Dom; 12-16-2012 at 09:10 PM. Reason: /
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