art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - Non Wot Discussion Boards > Archived: Non WoT Related Discussion 09/09 - 9/10
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-31-2010, 02:44 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,296
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivhon View Post
Yeah...props to Bill O for that. I imagine that even Olberman will make mention of that.
I find Olberman to be a whiny douche (anyone surprised). He's the part of the Left that pisses me off. He should have stayed on Sportscenter...where he actually had talent.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #22  
Old 03-31-2010, 03:06 PM
Basel Gill's Avatar
Basel Gill Basel Gill is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 701
Basel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant future
Default

Well, if they didn't even know they were there until after the whole funeral was over, then yeah Dav, you're right on. No legal issue there, just a bunch of assholes with no common sense or courtesy.
__________________
Just because you are unique, does not mean you are useful.
  #23  
Old 03-31-2010, 03:58 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,940
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

But our resident lawyer has said that they were wrong, that the supposedly competent judges totally bodged this case, so obviously there has to be more to it than just this "the WBC was on the television, so they were fair game for a law suit".
  #24  
Old 03-31-2010, 03:58 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,135
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

What I find funny is that they seemed unaware of the existence of WBC until their funeral was protested. Do these people never watch the news?

But yeah, good on O'Reilly for paying this guy's bills. I think legal action against these guys should be encouraged, but can we not get some creative lawyers on the case? Not this case in particular...but the scenario in general. We should be able to come up with something to get these guys, with some elbow grease.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #25  
Old 03-31-2010, 04:05 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,940
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Have a religion with complete silence during funerals. If necessary, found such a religion. Then sue the WBC for violating your First Amendment rights when they interfere with your religion. If nothing else, it'll keep a couple of judges happy while they are juggling the question of "which religion is religiouser", and presumably some lawyers will be getting paid too.
  #26  
Old 03-31-2010, 04:13 PM
JSUCamel's Avatar
JSUCamel JSUCamel is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 3,264
JSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to JSUCamel Send a message via MSN to JSUCamel Send a message via Yahoo to JSUCamel
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Have a religion with complete silence during funerals. If necessary, found such a religion. Then sue the WBC for violating your First Amendment rights when they interfere with your religion. If nothing else, it'll keep a couple of judges happy while they are juggling the question of "which religion is religiouser", and presumably some lawyers will be getting paid too.
Genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdsaf3
Bigger picture question. Say the Supreme Court says that people have a legitimate right to privacy, and that the actions of the protesters was inappropriate. The first thing I think of is how celebrities would be affected. With a relatively loose interpretation of the right to privacy, a lawyer could probably make the case that such a right extends to paparazzi not being allowed to take photographs of people, especially celebrities. Food for thought. Then again, I suppose the paparazzi could be considered to be journalists and therefore be protected by the freedom of the press clause, but I don't know.
The difference here is that celebrities, by virtue of being celebrities and always in the public spotlight, have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place. You and I, on the other hand, have every reason to expect that our privacy will be respected as we walk down the street. The papparazzi have won dozens of lawsuits about this very issue.

Technically, if you're standing on the street, I can take a picture with you in it and I don't have to credit you or get your permission. But if I take a picture of YOU (emphasis on you) on the street, then that's a different matter. In the former, it's the street that is the focus of the picture. In the second, I'm singling you out. You have a reasonable expectation that you won't be singled out by photographers on the street, but celebrities lose that legal safety.
__________________
---

"Nice try, Jack!" - Robert Jordan (to Camel)
"Camel must be the coolest TLer ever, by now." -GLotD

A grilled cheese eaten more than five minutes later is just no good. -Crispin



  #27  
Old 03-31-2010, 04:33 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,940
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSUCamel View Post
Genius.
Of course.
  #28  
Old 03-31-2010, 05:02 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,135
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Except that the WBC would be unlikely to protest a funeral at a church where they would get arrested. They look into these things, you know.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #29  
Old 03-31-2010, 05:06 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,940
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

That's the second part of my scheme: my new religion will now sweep the world, and I'll be reaping the benefits. Which reminds me: I should've set that up before revealing the scheme. L. Ron Hubbard made it look so easy, but I keep forgetting to rake in the money.
  #30  
Old 03-31-2010, 06:51 PM
Sinistrum's Avatar
Sinistrum Sinistrum is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Midland
Posts: 3,381
Sinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Sinistrum
Default

Yeah, here's a good article explaining why the 4th Circuit got this wrong.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...r+Restrictions

Of particular note:

Quote:
Under the First Amendment, the government may not close traditional public forums but may place reasonable restrictions on their use.

The reasonableness of any such restriction will be evaluated in light of specific guidelines that have been established by the Supreme Court. First, a restriction must be content-neutral, which means the government may not prohibit entire classes of expression, such as speech concerning poverty, drug abuse, or race relations. Second, a restriction must be viewpoint-neutral, which means that it must apply uniformly to all speech; that is, it may not silence only those speakers whom the government opposes or sanction only those whom the government supports. Third, a restriction must burden speech no more than is necessary to serve an important government interest. Restrictions that are carefully aimed at controlling the harmful consequences of speech, such as litter, unrest, and disorder, will normally satisfy these guidelines.
__________________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me. " -Rorschach

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. - River Tam
  #31  
Old 03-31-2010, 07:18 PM
Ivhon's Avatar
Ivhon Ivhon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Blue Star Deep in the Heart of Tejas
Posts: 3,677
Ivhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Ivhon Send a message via Yahoo to Ivhon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
Yeah, here's a good article explaining why the 4th Circuit got this wrong.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...r+Restrictions

Of particular note:
Wouldnt that depend on how unrest and disorder are defined? If those demonstrations - morally objectionalbe though they may be - are defined as disorderly or unrestful when they did not, say, incite a riot or directly lead to violent confrontation, does that not set a precedent that could impact any number of peaceable demonstrations that some other group may find objectionable?
__________________
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Ghandi

Proud owner of the first post on TL's VBulletin forum (sorry...I had ta )

Greeter Emeritus
  #32  
Old 03-31-2010, 07:55 PM
Sinistrum's Avatar
Sinistrum Sinistrum is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Midland
Posts: 3,381
Sinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Sinistrum
Default

Perhaps if the WBC was just protesting in random public forums and various political, social, and religious issues, that might be the case Ivhon. I think the distinguishing feature here is that they are doing this at funerals and specifically directing a lot of their signs at the persons who have deceased and their families. Given the overwhelming emotional nature of the event they are protesting at, where people are already emotionally unstable, adding that kind of element is IMHO, a recipe for imminent lawless actions (which is the current test for whether speech can be restricted based upon violence and disorder).

I mean really, you are seeing a converging of 1st Amendment restriction doctrines here, and all of them point toward allowing restriction of the speech.
__________________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me. " -Rorschach

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. - River Tam
  #33  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:06 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,296
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
Perhaps if the WBC was just protesting in random public forums and various political, social, and religious issues, that might be the case Ivhon. I think the distinguishing feature here is that they are doing this at funerals and specifically directing a lot of their signs at the persons who have deceased and their families. Given the overwhelming emotional nature of the event they are protesting at, where people are already emotionally unstable, adding that kind of element is IMHO, a recipe for imminent lawless actions (which is the current test for whether speech can be restricted based upon violence and disorder).

I mean really, you are seeing a converging of 1st Amendment restriction doctrines here, and all of them point toward allowing restriction of the speech.
How is this worse than a Neo Nazi rally or a KKK rally?

I mean honestly, they didn't even see them until they turned on their television.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #34  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:20 PM
Ivhon's Avatar
Ivhon Ivhon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Blue Star Deep in the Heart of Tejas
Posts: 3,677
Ivhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond reputeIvhon has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Ivhon Send a message via Yahoo to Ivhon
Default

That makes some sense, Sini. Don't get me wrong - I would love it if these assburgers could be restrained. I just do NOT want it to set precedent that could be generalized to any kind of speech that anyone might find disturbing or objectionable.

First Amendment is there for everybody - no matter what you believe.
__________________
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. - Mahatma Ghandi

Proud owner of the first post on TL's VBulletin forum (sorry...I had ta )

Greeter Emeritus
  #35  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:21 PM
Sinistrum's Avatar
Sinistrum Sinistrum is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Midland
Posts: 3,381
Sinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Sinistrum
Default

Quote:
How is this worse than a Neo Nazi rally or a KKK rally?
I've already answerd that. The message, in of itself, is not different from the KKK or Neo-Nazis, and therefore they have the right to spread it. It is their choice of event to attempt to spread that message that should be restricted (ie FUNERALS).
__________________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me. " -Rorschach

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. - River Tam
  #36  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:24 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,296
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
I've already answerd that. The message, in of itself, is not different from the KKK or Neo-Nazis, and therefore they have the right to spread it. It is their choice of event to attempt to spread that message that should be restricted (ie FUNERALS).
Isn't that already constrained? In this incident, the family didn't even see them until they turned on the television of coverage of the procession. Hardly an in their face aggressive protest. I dont think what they do is right but I dont think that this incident is a real violation of the family's privacy.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #37  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:52 PM
Sinistrum's Avatar
Sinistrum Sinistrum is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Midland
Posts: 3,381
Sinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond reputeSinistrum has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Sinistrum
Default

Quote:
In this incident, the family didn't even see them until they turned on the television of coverage of the procession.
So if I were to take a bunch of paparizzi shots of you doing potentially embarassing and humiliating things and you don't see them until after I publish them, that's not an invasion of privacy?

That is essentially what happened here. The WBC used this families grief as a launch board for their hate, published that hate by allowing media to film it, and then the family discovered the use of their emotions after the fact.
__________________
"None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me. " -Rorschach

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. - River Tam
  #38  
Old 04-01-2010, 03:40 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,940
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The government had given permission to the WBC to hold that demonstration. There were cops present to see that it did not become too disorderly. As far as I know, none of the WBC idiots was arrested for breaking those restrictions.
Yet after the fact people sued the WBC for doing what they had been allowed to do according to the legal rules pertaining to this.

Wouldn't it have made more sense if the father of that Marine had sued the US government (or perhaps just the county sheriff) for allowing people with a controversial opinion to use their First Amendment rights?

Let me give another example: if there is a gay pride parade, and someone sees that on television two days later, could that person then sue the organisers on the grounds that if he had been present, he would have started a riot, and consequently the parade was "a recipe for imminent lawless actions ", as you put it?

The whole issue you have with it seems to be "someone could've become violent, therefor prohibiting it was the right thing to do". Using that rule, all funerals of dead Marines could be prohibited, as soon as a small group of fanatics announced an intention to maybe possible start violence at such funerals.
So, if some American sued that father for burying his son, would you be outraged if that idiot had to pay the court fees and such of the Marine's family?
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.