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  #61  
Old 11-03-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
I believe Fain's power was completely unique to him and was the result of the Mordeth/Fain quagmire along with the Ishy "distilling" process. I'd love to know what that "distilling" actually was.
It wasn't dat stilling over dere, it was dis stilling over here.
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  #62  
Old 11-04-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
I disagree. While it might be a stratagem by Ishy when he awoke during Hawkwing's time, it's by no means assured.
Do you have some evidence to refute BG Miraj's assertion that the "pure version" originated with the version Luthair brought with him?

If an origin for the source of rhe courruption -- or pure version from the Seanchan perspective -- was not cited by RJ, then you might well have a point.

However, RJ did put words in BG Miraj's head to tell us how the corruption happened, so without some contradiction from the books or RJ, you haven't a leg to stand on.
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  #63  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
If he does, then Ishamael wins.
Bullshit. Ishamael might like to think so, but Tuon is married to Rand's childhood friend. Ishamael couldn't have anticipated that.
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  #64  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Why couldn't it be much more likely that as the Seanchan began to expand their holdings against the patchwork of kingdoms that were on the western continent, they deliberately fabricated this prophecy? They never knew Shadowspawn. A few hundred years in, they might have wanted a little extra legitimacy, and the only thing everyone agreed upon was the Dragon would be Reborn. They probably thought the Last Battle a myth, and as a means of assuring their control, spread this false line that the savior of mankind would be subservient to the Crystal Throne? They've been in complete control of Seanchan for either a hundred or three hundred years (forget which it is), more than enough time to burn all the older copies.
My point exactly, we can not know for certain which Prophecies have been corrupted and by whom. I was even thinking a similar possibility that the Seachan added to them afterward, who knows, maybe someone had a Foretelling and they added it.

This much I do know. It is possible for Rand to travel there along with Tuon. It is possible they merely meant that he would kneel before the Empress. People, such as Tuon, will take these Prophecies for truth and act on them as such regardless of their origin. Again, I could easily see a newly not so crazy Rand kneeling in order to bind the Seachan to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Bullshit. Ishamael might like to think so, but Tuon is married to Rand's childhood friend. Ishamael couldn't have anticipated that.
Either way, that is in the Prophecies as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylee (KoD)
"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown."
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  #65  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:51 AM
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Yeah, but it is not at all certain that Ishamael could foresee that the descendants of Luthair would start using the raven as one of their symbols. And I'm not sure that at the time, he knew who the fox was going to be either.
  #66  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
My point exactly, we can not know for certain which Prophecies have been corrupted and by whom.
I don't know how RJ could have told us more clearly what the corruption consists of and where it originated than BG Miraj's viewpoint -- except for an author's note immediately following that viewpoint that said:

Hey look people, It is the seanchan versions that are wrong because somebody tampered with Luthair's copy and the Seanchan think Luthiar shit chocolate and peed lemonade so his copy had to be pure and untainted.
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  #67  
Old 11-04-2009, 01:37 PM
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That is merely a way to show that there are differences, not that the part is in fact 100% corruption on the part of Ishy or whomever.
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Last edited by One Armed Gimp; 11-04-2009 at 01:41 PM.
  #68  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:10 PM
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About the wolfking and the fox marrying the raven, there is nothing that says that part isn't in the prophecies in randland, just never been mentioned.
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  #69  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
That is merely a way to show that there are differences, not that the part is in fact 100% corruption on the part of Ishy or whomever.
Can you cite any contradiction to Miraj's assertion that Luthair's copy is the source of the corruption?

There is no direct evidence that Ishamael was behind the corruption of Luthair's copy, but there is also no other real contender for his claim of a "doom yet to come."

The point is that Miraj's POV identifies and explains the corruption as identified by the key phrase "Kneeling before the Crystal Throne" and therfore we know positively that that phrase is NOT Prophecy and NOT going to be fulfilled -- no matter how hard the Seanchan try to force a fulfillment.

There is remote possibility that it is not Ishamael who will win if Rand does kneel and fall under the influence of the Crystal Throne, but whoever caused the corruption will win and it is functionally the same thing as "Ishy wins."
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  #70  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Can you cite any contradiction to Miraj's assertion that Luthair's copy is the source of the corruption?
Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.

I am not saying its prophecy, but I would not be surprised to see Rand kneel to either the empress or the Crystal Throne itself.

People just seem so closed to the idea. It amuses me.
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  #71  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:42 PM
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WH, have you ever heard of a 'red herring'?
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  #72  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.
How else do you propose that RJ should have revealed the nature and source of the corruption?

Miraj's POV is "an uncontradicted source" If we do NOT accept his thoughts as fact, then there is no evidence whatsoever as to the nature and source of the contradiction.

If you can find some canon source that contradicts Miraj's POV, then you have an argument, but I'm reasonably certain no such source exists.
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  #73  
Old 11-04-2009, 04:29 PM
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I guess I just never made the leap of faith that any uncontradicted thought of a character was fact.

There is really no point in arguing this. Neither of us can prove that the other in fact wrong or right. Well I guess you could prove me wrong if I were willing to accept that any uncontradicted source such as a characters thoughts were fact, but I am not, so you won't.

However, I doubt I will be able to get you to budge from your belief either.
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  #74  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
Can you prove for a fact that the "kneeling" is in fact a corruption? No you just assume based on what a character thinks.
Yes, by the very simple fact that if the "kneeling before the Crystal Throne" had been in the original, then every single two-bit lord would have had a Chrystal Throne of his own, so that the DR could properly kneel when he finally showed up.
The simple fact that there isn't a thriving Crystal-Throne-making-industry in Randland proves that it is a corruption.
  #75  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:52 AM
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You are assuming that the RL version is the the 100% correct version. Who is to say that is the case? The phrase could easily have been adapted from the Prophecies of the Dragon that existed in Seachan prior to the consolidation, which, for all we know could have a more correct uncorrupted copy.

No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.
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  #76  
Old 11-05-2009, 08:45 AM
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Well, we do know that the AS who were going to build the Stone of Tear did so specifically because of the Prophecies, and they definitely were in what is now (sort of) Randland. That was during the Breaking, of course, so some of them may have been able to walk to what is now Seanchan.

Furthermore, how many truly different versions do we know about?
1. There is the Randland version. I never heard of different versions there, only of different translations and interpretations.
2. There is the Luthair version.
3. There are the other, suppressed, Seanchan versions. Those may or may not have been identical to each other. They may or may not have been identical to version 1. But they were not identical to version 2.

Given that, I would guess that version 3 was indeed the same as version 1, and that version 2 was the only different one. One single volume, whereas the "corrupted ones" existed in independent multitudes. That suggests rather very strongly indeed that it was Luthair's version which was corrupted.
  #77  
Old 11-05-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Given that, I would guess that version 3 was indeed the same as version 1, and that version 2 was the only different one. One single volume, whereas the "corrupted ones" existed in independent multitudes. That suggests rather very strongly indeed that it was Luthair's version which was corrupted.
Well, lets put it in real-life terms. The King James version of the Bible was written in the early 1600s. It's widely believed by scholars to be one of the least accurate translations (as far as translation from Hebrew/Aramaic goes), but it is one of the most widespread and respected versions of the Bible in English.

Anyway, the point is that just because there's only one copy of version 2 and millions of copies of version 1, that doesn't mean version 2 is corrupt. It's entirely possible that the early editions of version 1 were corrupted and later on widely disseminated and distributed, while version 2 is the accurate one, but wasn't disseminated at all. Your argument here is akin to terez's "everyone else thinks it's true" argument in the construct vs real discussions.

Not that I believe this (regarding prophecies).. just playing devil's advocate.
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  #78  
Old 11-05-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
You are assuming that the RL version is the the 100% correct version. Who is to say that is the case? The phrase could easily have been adapted from the Prophecies of the Dragon that existed in Seachan prior to the consolidation, which, for all we know could have a more correct uncorrupted copy.

No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.
It's partly a question of motivation and partly a question of logistics. The people of the Westlands have no idea what the Crystal Throne is and therefor no motive to remove mention of it from their version of the prophecies. The Seanchan, on the other hand, have every reason to edit out the "bind the Nine Moons to serve him" verse. Alternatively, if we're blaming the discrepancies on Ishamael rather than political expediency it comes down to a question of numbers. Corrupting every single copy on an entire continent would be a Herculean undertaking. Corrupting the handful of copies on ships in Luthair's fleet would be much simpler.
  #79  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
No definitive answer to this can be had based on the present information.
Just how much more "definitive" than Miraj's POV would RJ have to be to present evidence you'd consider valid?

The source and nature of the corruption has been revealed, you simply refuse to accept it because RJ didn't step outside of the story to use nean signs and brass bands to announce it.
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  #80  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:23 PM
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I'm very slightly saddened that we're not talking about 'new theories' that tGS opens/closes/flips/rotates.....

But just to jump in on the fun......... I nominate WH as The Champion of Logic for this thread and give props to Gonzo and Nameless for also supporting the cause of Reason. Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that before the printing press (which I'm reasonably certain no one in Randland has had access to for awhile) there weren't many copies of any particular book and they each were made more or less by hand. This actually increases the chances of corruption due to sleepiness, spilled coffee, and the occasional malicious jerk bent on perverting truth. It's not very hard to track down the guy who wrote six copies of a book and figure out where his copies went or who decided to make copies of those. I'm actually thinking that a whole continents' copies are probably no more than a few dozen or so. I realize that this weakens the argument in favor of there still existing any trustworthy copies being *anywhere* at all, but since we can all (I sincerely hope) agree that some of the prophecies have been fulfilled already, accurate copies do, in fact exist and we'll leave this thought alone.

Of course, you don't even need to Travel or Compel anyone to rewrite the one and only copy that everybody (I hope again) knows that Ishy had easy access to and which went on to be carried by the guy who conquered a continent and which we are informed (with absolutely no logical reason to think otherwise) that every other copy found was rewritten to conform with.

The fact that we have heard nothing about conflicting/corrupted copies of the KC from anyone in the Westlands leads me to believe that whatever copies are in the Westlands either all agree with each other or that we have only heard about those prophecies that everyone who has bothered to learn about what is in the KC has agreed are accurate. Every. single. prophecy. except. the Seanchan KC.

Okay, on to the Bible thing Mister Devil's Advocate
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSUCamel
Well, lets put it in real-life terms. The King James version of the Bible was written in the early 1600s. It's widely believed by scholars to be one of the least accurate translations (as far as translation from Hebrew/Aramaic goes), but it is one of the most widespread and respected versions of the Bible in English.

Anyway, the point is that just because there's only one copy of version 2 and millions of copies of version 1, that doesn't mean version 2 is corrupt. It's entirely possible that the early editions of version 1 were corrupted and later on widely disseminated and distributed, while version 2 is the accurate one, but wasn't disseminated at all. Your argument here is akin to terez's "everyone else thinks it's true" argument in the construct vs real discussions.
as much as I might disagree with the KJB, none of the mistranslations come even close to turning 'bind the 9 moons' into 'kneel to the crystal throne.' Do I really need to go on? Okay, I will.... during a large portion of their history, I've heard that the Jews had some run-ins with persecution. There was even a good long time where the Jewish Nation was split up into 'Jews near Germany' and 'Jews in Arab lands.' Well, when they all got to the Octacentennial Family BBQ, there were so many different customs that had sprung up from living apart that they almost didn't recognize each other. There were, however, some distinct and possibly surprising similarities. Chief among these was that all of the handwritten bible scrolls that had been saved from fires and bandits and tigers and idiots with pens were all exactlythe same. No mistranslations, errors, additions or ommissions. The point is that when something is meaningful to you and represents your salvation, you tend to take decent care to *protect* it and maintain it's *accuracy.*

So, to conclude, Rand has not now, nor will he ever be kneeling to any thrones composed of crystal or wives of his friends. Unless Brandon reads this and decides to spike the ball because he gets final say and I've been too much of a wisemouth here.
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